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February 21, 2013 at 11:51 pm #1132070Up::0Billy744, post: 152419 wrote:For goodness sake, take time to read and learn please.
None of any of the above would have happened it people were manually processing the cards offline then destroying them so they don’t exist. Wake up and smell the coffee!!!
Ok.
I see nothing in those docs that show/compare the online v offline stats with regards to fraud occurring. Perhaps you can point this simple soul to the specific document from above that does this? Maybe I’ve missed it since I don’t drink coffee…Plus, I don’t think anyone can say for certain what would definitely occur if some other situation wasn’t in place. Unless you can turn back time and remove that particular situation. That would be impressive!
February 22, 2013 at 12:06 am #1132071Up::0Zava Design, post: 152422 wrote:I see nothing in those docs that show/compare the online v offline stats with regards to fraud occurring. Perhaps you can point this simple soul to the specific document from above that does this? Maybe I’ve missed it since I don’t drink coffee…You must be a major share holder in a real time credit card payment processing company or something because nobody else would try to deny what has and is actually happening in the world. CLICK ON THOSE LINKS I POSTED AND LEARN.
I really can’t help you anymore. You appear completely locked in to quite a warped understanding of things.
February 22, 2013 at 12:55 am #1132072Up::0Billy744, post: 152428 wrote:You must be a major share holder in a real time credit card payment processing company or something because nobody else would try to deny what has and is actually happening in the world. CLICK ON THOSE LINKS I POSTED AND LEARN.I really can’t help you anymore. You appear completely locked in to quite a warped understanding of things.
Umm, I did, and none of them answer my questions.I guess you must be stuck not understanding English. Seems we could both use some help.
OR you could simply say that you don’t have the data/figures that I’m asking about, and we can stick to debating the actual issue rather than the man. Your choice.
February 22, 2013 at 1:20 am #1132073Up::0Zava Design, post: 152435 wrote:Umm, I did, and none of them answer my questions.I guess you must be stuck not understanding English. Seems we could both use some help.
OR you could simply say that you don’t have the data/figures that I’m asking about, and we can stick to debating the actual issue rather than the man. Your choice.
How the hell can there be any figures on the number of non existent credit cards being stolen …. those credit card details don’t exist!!
You may find this hard to believe but no hacker in the world can thieve credit card details when they don’t even exist. And here rests the enormous security advantage in card data security when manually handling things offline, because once the card is processed it DOES NOT EXIST. Please tell me you understand you can’t thieve something that doesn’t exist.
But if you want to see what can happen to credit card details when they are permanently stored online or in databases or in storage devices then simply read the information from the links I have provided.
The world is in the grips of a fraud epidemic and businesses all over the world are being crippled by the costs or losses – NOT because hackers have stolen credit cards from a merchant where those credit cards don’t even exist. It is because hackers get in to networks, storage systems, servers, databases etc, and harvest countless millions of credit cards from where they are being permanently stored. Sure, don’t take my word on this so read the information from the links I have provided.
What you are seeking is 100% TOTALLY IN FRONT OF YOU. I really can’t explain it any more plainly for you.
I have not fallen victim to fraud since I started to do my transactions manually myself many years ago and every single one of my customers credit cards do not exist. This is the very best security in the world bar none!
February 22, 2013 at 1:33 am #1132074Up::0Billy744, post: 152441 wrote:How the hell can there be any figures on the number of non existent credit cards being stolen …. those credit card details don’t exist!!
I’ll clarify my questions since I don’t seem to have made it clear for you:Question #1: Of the total number of credit card transactions conducted (be it national, global, whatever will provide some sort of indication), what percentage are offline/manual? (ie. not online).
People still conduct CC puchases offline, correct?
Question #2: Of the above figure, what is the percentage/figures for credit card fraud arising from these offline/manual transactions?
Is that clearer? Or not, and shall I just give up rather than start abusing like you?
Or maybe someone else can try explaining it since I don’t seem to have been clear enough?The world is in the grips of a fraud epidemic and businesses all over the world are being crippled by the costs or losses
And if you looked back to one of my earlier posts, you would see where I posted links to a couple of articles about some major fraud incidents that had nothing to do with online CC processing.
February 22, 2013 at 2:05 am #1132075Up::0Tanya_Roache, post: 152361 wrote:I have been a long time fan of this site. I have never wanted to sign up but I think I need to because I really want to say some things about this subject.I agree wholeheartedly with Scrooge. This is one of the most amazing advantages of taking orders online and processing yourself offline, or, the “manual way” as I see people cal it. Security for the business owner which has not been mentioned so far.
I am very sorry but this needs to be said in the hope others don’t get caught up in false promises made by expensive services like I did.
I was using a real time online processing gateway for two years. I won’t mention which one. I paid extra to get their extra special security anti fraud thingie. But in those two years I suffered seven big frauds where I lost a sewing machine on each occasion, the last two were only a few days apart.
I was shattered and it almost lost me my business. It was a very stressful and terrible time.
On the last one I demanded my online credit card processing company reimburse me the lost $799.00 because I was paying extra for all their great wonderful extra security anti fraud service. But they said “Oh no, we don’t guarantee you wont ever fall victim to fraud, it only helps to protect you. We won’t be reimburse you”.
Me: shattered again.
I got rid of that service that very day and got my merchant account changed to a virtual pos evolve single merchant account from my bank (Commonwealth Bank) and moved to e-path and started processing transactions myself.
I have been with e-path now for 18 months and not once have I suffered another fraud. I can see the customers details as they come in and my husband and I can check things ourselves. There has been a few fake order attempts but not one has been charged. We are the best anti fraud system there is.
I can not speak highly enough of the advantages of changing from online processing to offline processing. It is much much safer for us and it is a great deal cheaper too. It really has saved our business.
I deal with our business manager at the Commonwealth often and he tells me they are fully aware of reduced fraud instances when businesses pull away from automated internet transactions and do things safely themselves offline.
My advice is if you are tempted to go to a real time processing gateway and get all their extra anti fraud services, ask them if you fall victim to fraud will they reimburse you what you lost?. The answer tells the true story of how good they believe their own anti fraud service is.
Please let me also to agree with Billy. I don’t store any credit card numbers or anything after I make the charge so it is also a wonderfully safe and secure for the owner of the credit card.
There, I’ve finally said what I wanted to say.
Thank you
Tanya
This is why do my transactions offline too. Like supa great it is so cheap but really I do it because I can stop fraud myself. No way can I afford to lose anything so I am supa careful. It is up to me if I charge a credit card not some electronic thing on the internet.
I wll never pay online on any shop that uses a gateway which permanently stores my credit card and then not let me get it deleted, no way. Why are they even allowing this?
I don’t know much about all this arguments going on here but I luv doing things my way. It is heaps better and safer for me and my customers.
Thank you
Trudy
February 22, 2013 at 2:12 am #1132076Up::0Trudy_BN, post: 152446 wrote:This is why do my transactions offline too. Like supa great it is so cheap but really I do it because I can stop fraud myself. No way can I afford to lose anything so I am supa careful. It is up to me if I charge a credit card not some electronic thing on the internet.I wll never pay online on any shop that uses a gateway which permanently stores my credit card and then not let me get it deleted, no way. Why are they even allowing this?
I don’t know much about all this arguments going on here but I luv doing things my way. It is heaps better and safer for me and my customers.
Thank you
Trudy
Hi Trudy, yep, totally agree with you.
Hey, how dd you go with e-Path? You were the one to actually put me on to them and I am already using them now. Did you go with them or what is the latest with you?
February 22, 2013 at 2:37 am #1132077Up::0Hi ya Billy.
Thanks heaps for you remebering me. yeh, went with epath but not good, supa frustrating to set up.
I had to get them all the details the bank has supplied me to prove I handle credit cards to pci compliance and prove the bank is letting me do card not present transaxtions. I thought the bank was hard on securty but epath goes ape over it.
They could tone it down a bit no reason to be like so obsessive if you know what I mean.
It is all cool now. My shop has been live with epath for only two days. I have had one order already and I just really do the same as I had done before so no worries.
After a week with them I will write an update to my first question message about epath but two days and only one order is too soon.
Thank you
Trudy
February 22, 2013 at 2:43 am #1132078Up::0Trudy_BN, post: 152451 wrote:Hi ya Billy.Thanks heaps for you remebering me. yeh, went with epath but not good, supa frustrating to set up.
I had to get them all the details the bank has supplied me to prove I handle credit cards to pci compliance and prove the bank is letting me do card not present transaxtions. I thought the bank was hard on securty but epath goes ape over it.
They could tone it down a bit no reason to be like so obsessive if you know what I mean.
It is all cool now. My shop has been live with epath for only two days. I have had one order already and I just really do the same as I had done before so no worries.
After a week with them I will write an update to my first question message about epath but two days and only one order is too soon.
Thank you
Trudy
I know exactly what you mean. It is getting harder an harder these days. Not a bad thing in the big scheme of things. I didn’t mind it too much but yeh, a pain all the same.
February 22, 2013 at 3:19 am #1132079Up::0Scrooge, post: 152350 wrote:Just as an aside to this entire amazingly heated debate.Before we were PCI online / offline compliant we manually processed transactions. We had 0 fraud 0 –
Once we went full automated gateway we now have a great deal of fraudulent transactions.
We cannot revert back to manual processing the volume is simply too high.
Also as an aside one thing we have noticed is people DO NOT expect their card to be immediately charged they expect it to take place after the order.
To me that is weird when you market a live gateway – but it has been a constant remark –
I have also spoken to people that run sites far larger than ours in the over 20mill per year bracket and the experience is similar.
Hi Scrooge,
With the volume you’re doing I would really recommend you talk to our team about using our new fraud prevention. It’s provided through a partnership with Retail Decisions (ReD) and works by taking every piece of information you send through in the transaction and comparing it against all other transactions using that data. As an example, your neighbour steals your card and buys something through your site. The address and card details match, but the email address, phone number and IP Address are different compared to the last 5 transactions. Our system is smart enough to block or alert you (depending on your settings)
It actually gives you the option to reintroduce the ‘manual checking/processing’ where the transaction fails certain rules. So any transactions that are safe will go through live and any deemed suspect or dodgy will be referred to you or blocked.
It’s offered at a tiny percentage of the cost of going directly to ReD and can be added on any time to your plan.
Here’s some info – http://www.eway.com.au/why-eway/beagle-alerts
If you want to PM me a best way/time of contact I’m happy to get the guys to call you and answer any questions you have.
Maclean
February 22, 2013 at 4:38 am #1132081Up::0Scrooge, post: 152462 wrote:Beagle is ridiculously expensive, even through you it is still very expensive. SO in essence you want us to pay for a service that is already on top of the 1% you charge plus the yearly fee.We are catching the fraudulent transactions the point is they happen more prevalent now with online processing, what you should do is offer Beagle for free as an incentive to be with eway
Hi Scrooge,
We offer our older Beagle system for free but the new system costs us a lot of money to offer, so we need to charge for it. As a comparison, it costs a minimum of $22,000 over an unbreakable 5 year contract to go directly to ReD, the price we’re able to offer it for is tiny compared to that!
Just to confirm, you don’t pay a percentage to eWAY. You pay a yearly fee + a flat transaction fee for any transactions not included for free in your plan. The percentage is charged by your bank and known as an ‘interchange fee’ which is the fee charged originally by Visa/MasterCard.
If you’ve weighed up the costs of manually checking all transactions (and the lost merchant service fee after refunding) vs paying for Beagle and only checking referred transactions (which you can set to not charge automatically) and Beagle has come up more expensive then obviously I’ve got no argument for you. If not, I’d really recommend putting together some numbers of what your manual processes cost you and talk to our team.
Thanks,
Maclean
February 22, 2013 at 4:57 am #1132082Up::0I would be interested to know when you “set it to not charge automatically”, where is the CVV being stored while it is waiting? And is there a time limit?
February 22, 2013 at 5:09 am #1132083Up::0eWAY, post: 152464 wrote:Hi Scrooge,We offer our older Beagle system for free but the new system costs us a lot of money to offer, so we need to charge for it. As a comparison, it costs a minimum of $22,000 over an unbreakable 5 year contract to go directly to ReD, the price we’re able to offer it for is tiny compared to that!
Just to confirm, you don’t pay a percentage to eWAY. You pay a yearly fee + a flat transaction fee for any transactions not included for free in your plan. The percentage is charged by your bank and known as an ‘interchange fee’ which is the fee charged originally by Visa/MasterCard.
If you’ve weighed up the costs of manually checking all transactions (and the lost merchant service fee after refunding) vs paying for Beagle and only checking referred transactions (which you can set to not charge automatically) and Beagle has come up more expensive then obviously I’ve got no argument for you. If not, I’d really recommend putting together some numbers of what your manual processes cost you and talk to our team.
Thanks,
Maclean
I have a question for eway too please.
If I use eway and pay the extra for Beagle and I get a letter from my bank telling me they have taken out $700 from my bank account because your system processed a $700 fraud transaction three weeks earlier, how long will it take you to reimburse me the $700 I lost?
You would offer a guarantee that it works wouldn’t you?
Thanks
February 22, 2013 at 5:10 am #1132084Up::0Billy744, post: 152467 wrote:I would be interested to know when you “set it to not charge automatically”, where is the CVV being stored while it is waiting? And is there a time limit?CVN is not stored, as per PCI-DSS compliance requirements.
You have a 3 different options for a blocked or challenged transaction. Both types have an individual setting
– Pre auth at time of checkout (using CVN), capture payment (doesn’t require CVN as already pre-authed) after investigating
– Store transaction details (without CVN) At time of investigation you must obtain the CVN from the customer
– Allow the transaction through but receive notification of challenged or blocked transaction.There is no time limit from eWAY’s end, however each bank has their own limit on how long they will retain a pre-authorisation. It tends to range from 1 day to 5 days. If the capture fails due to time limit then you would have to obtain the CVN and reprocess the transaction using the recharge wizard.
Note: Again, as per PCI-DSS requirements, at no time do you as the merchant have access to the full PAN or CVN.
Maclean
February 22, 2013 at 5:36 am #1132085Up::0eWAY, post: 152469 wrote:Note: Again, as per PCI-DSS requirements, at no time do you as the merchant have access to the full PAN or CVN.Maclean
You know as well as I that this is not a PCI requirement. In many instances merchants are approved to view card details in order to process a charge.MOTO approved merchants are approved to receive credit card payments by fax when someone faxes through an order and has payment details on it, millions do every day around the world. As they are approved to receive credit card details over the phone when someone phones through an order and payment, can’t imagine how may do this every day, and also by mail order.
In a card present situation where the merchant has to view the signature on the back they have clear view of the CVV too.
To suggest those doing it this way are somehow not complying to PCI is not only incorrect but is irresponsible of you because you may be alarming people. You should know better than to do this.
For anyone who is processing cards manually and has been approved to do so by their bank and are now worried about what eway has just posted, why not ring your bank to put your mind at ease. Your bank will do exactly that.
I am a MOTO merchant myself and have just been through all this with my bank in finite detail.
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