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  • #995576
    Johny
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    #1202756
    Paul – FS Concierge
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    Johny, post: 240474, member: 34822 wrote:
    http://www.bandt.com.au/marketing/mark-ritson?utm_source=B&T Newsletter List&utm_campaign=400138fc3d-Newsletter_October_25_10_16&utm_medium=email
    Hi [USER=34822]@Johny[/USER] Would you mind editing your post to include a summary/cliff notes and I would also be interested in what the key take-aways for you in the article?
    #1202757
    Johny
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    Paul, I generally do write a big screed when I add a link. In this case I purposefully didn’t as I thought it better for people to make up their own minds.

    This guy can be controversial with his comments, but there is some merit in what he says. Marketers often don’t like it of course because it doesn’t fit neatly inside the box.

    The main point I get from it is that there are so many channels now pulling in each and every direction. The supposed experts are often dictating rather than listening and there is so much data around that it is easy to distort a message to support a particular viewpoint.

    The buyer is of course compliant in all this because they just accept what they are told without doing any research of their own – due diligence if you like.

    A good example is that of the comments about millennials. Social media is full of “why millennials are different” articles, and yet certainly my experience agrees that they aren’t that much different in general at all.

    The end result is receiving recommendations and marketing solutions from people who may not necessarily be giving the most appropriate advice.

    At what cost I wonder?

    #1202758
    bb1
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    Johny, post: 240499, member: 34822 wrote:
    Paul, I generally do write a big screed when I add a link. In this case I purposefully didn’t as I thought it better for people to make up their own minds.

    This guy can be controversial with his comments, but there is some merit in what he says. Marketers often don’t like it of course because it doesn’t fit neatly inside the box.

    The main point I get from it is that there are so many channels now pulling in each and every direction. The supposed experts are often dictating rather than listening and there is so much data around that it is easy to distort a message to support a particular viewpoint.

    The buyer is of course compliant in all this because they just accept what they are told without doing any research of their own – due diligence if you like.

    A good example is that of the comments about millennials. Social media is full of “why millennials are different” articles, and yet certainly my experience agrees that they aren’t that much different in general at all.

    The end result is receiving recommendations and marketing solutions from people who may not necessarily be giving the most appropriate advice.

    At what cost I wonder?
    Great Summary Johny, he is definitely going against the trend of marketers, which from comments I often see on here, they are just like sheep, because joe Blow is doing something everyone else must do the same. Some innovative approaches would be great.

    #1202759
    Paul – FS Concierge
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    Johny, post: 240499, member: 34822 wrote:
    Paul, I generally do write a big screed when I add a link. In this case I purposefully didn’t as I thought it better for people to make up their own minds.

    This guy can be controversial with his comments, but there is some merit in what he says. Marketers often don’t like it of course because it doesn’t fit neatly inside the box.

    The main point I get from it is that there are so many channels now pulling in each and every direction. The supposed experts are often dictating rather than listening and there is so much data around that it is easy to distort a message to support a particular viewpoint.

    The buyer is of course compliant in all this because they just accept what they are told without doing any research of their own – due diligence if you like.

    A good example is that of the comments about millennials. Social media is full of “why millennials are different” articles, and yet certainly my experience agrees that they aren’t that much different in general at all.

    The end result is receiving recommendations and marketing solutions from people who may not necessarily be giving the most appropriate advice.

    At what cost I wonder?
    Thanks for your take [USER=34822]@Johny[/USER] and I am glad that the discussion has started. It is definitely worthwhile material to discuss!

    Without revealing my personal thoughts, I wonder if he was making the same retorts to the Agency people when the internet didn’t exist?

    Or was every dollar spent with laser-like accuracy in them days?

    I did read some interesting research the other day around a significant drop off in TV viewing amongst young people vs little change in hours per day for those over 60.

    Is it a sign of things to come that a lot of young people of working age have the means but choose not to buy a TV at all?

    Thanks for posting.

    #1202760
    Paul – FS Concierge
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    Now that I think about it, the Cola Wars erupted in the 80’s after Coke introduced “New Coke”. It was a fiasco that was said to occur despite spending millions of dollars on market research and focus groups.

    And here we are in 2016 and Arnotts is facing the same problems with the “Shapes” nightmare.

    For an opposite view of how Agencies are wasteful in their recommendations because it is “safer” to spend money on TV instead of online, Google Gary Vaynerchuk.

    If you do, be warned. That man swears.

    A Lot.

    Cheers

    #1202761
    Johny
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    Thanks Paul.

    I think history is littered with examples of what went right or wrong. For me it really isn’t the point here as it only serves to steer the argument in the direction we want it to go. You could also argue for example that coca cola has probably gotten much more right in their historical marketing strategy than they have gotten wrong. Or that Apple stuffed up with a few products, but managed to get over it pretty well.

    Interestingly, I read not that long ago that still something like 70-80% of people at listening to radio, millennials included (this is an American stat and I can’t recall the specifics). I found it quite hard to believe, so on that basis, if I was considering advertising it would require more research on my part.

    How many digital marketers would be pushing the benefits of radio do you reckon? How many customers of marketers would be blindly accepting that radio is dead?

    That is the thing I get from this.

    Social media has made everyone a guru/expert and forums are a classic example of both experts and people willing to be led by them. A quote from the article I agree with:-

    “None of these (social media gurus) are reading anything, they’re too busy typing something into 140 characters to release the latest nonsense on how Millennials are changing the world. It’s ill-disciplined thinking at its very worst.”

    So true in my opinion.

    I deal quite a lot with people in the promotional products industry which is one arm within the marketing stable. It is an industry that uses stats to distort the benefit of promotional products, with unskilled operators who wouldn’t have a clue how to identify their clients market or segment the most suitable products. (I am of course speaking generally)

    As a result I think business is paying a large price for something they may not necessarily be getting a benefit from.

    #1202762
    Paul – FS Concierge
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    Johny, post: 240532, member: 34822 wrote:
    Thanks Paul.

    I think history is littered with examples of what went right or wrong. For me it really isn’t the point here as it only serves to steer the argument in the direction we want it to go. You could also argue for example that coca cola has probably gotten much more right in their historical marketing strategy than they have gotten wrong. Or that Apple stuffed up with a few products, but managed to get over it pretty well.

    Interestingly, I read not that long ago that still something like 70-80% of people at listening to radio, millennials included (this is an American stat and I can’t recall the specifics). I found it quite hard to believe, so on that basis, if I was considering advertising it would require more research on my part.

    How many digital marketers would be pushing the benefits of radio do you reckon? How many customers of marketers would be blindly accepting that radio is dead?

    That is the thing I get from this.

    Social media has made everyone a guru/expert and forums are a classic example of both experts and people willing to be led by them. A quote from the article I agree with:-

    “None of these (social media gurus) are reading anything, they’re too busy typing something into 140 characters to release the latest nonsense on how Millennials are changing the world. It’s ill-disciplined thinking at its very worst.”

    So true in my opinion.

    I deal quite a lot with people in the promotional products industry which is one arm within the marketing stable. It is an industry that uses stats to distort the benefit of promotional products, with unskilled operators who wouldn’t have a clue how to identify their clients market or segment the most suitable products. (I am of course speaking generally)

    As a result I think business is paying a large price for something they may not necessarily be getting a benefit from.

    Hi Johny, I love this discussion! Thanks for your ideas.

    OMG – I just wrote a very long reply that I lost. Damn internet!

    Cliff notes:

    • The old system (Agency/Publisher) didn’t use $$$ efficiently
    • The new system (internet marketer) doesn’t use $$$ efficiently
    • The new system doesn’t make the old system less inefficient.

    Like the industry you deal with where you identify economic inefficiencies ie, money being diverted to the wrong places, so too is the internet full of these examples.

    On the other hand, the article doesn’t mention that the way people interact with different medium’s is changing. So a tv might still command x hours of viewing time but if y hours are spent on Netflix, and u hours are spent on mobile devices while the tv is on, then in my view it is not good enough to say that tv has an 85% reach.

    Seeing around the curve in the road, the ability to obtain cheap and accurate metrics that will count will put a lot of people out of work in the research industry. Bots will interact with and assist customers and collect and present data along the way.

    Coke didn’t ask the one question that counted. If we removed “old” coke from the shelves, would you buy “new” coke.

    I participated in a NAB survey on Thursday and they kept asking questions around the theme of “Do you feel valued by the NAB?”

    But they didn’t ask me why I prefer the CBA over the NAB right now even though they knew I moved most of my business away from NAB.

    Obviously, this is not to say that all research is bad or ineffective but there is a lot of bad research that goes on and internet marketers are responsible for a lot of good research eg, Trip Advisor ratings provide a good but not perfect experience for travellers to choose which hotel to stay in.

    The pop ups I don’t like? They produce more sales – researched and verified. Hopefully, over time, they will produce less sales so I don’t have to see them again!

    I just have a feel for this guy that screams human click bait and it makes me uneasy. And his vested interests? Here is the reveal, quoted from the article, “I’ve done work for clients…”.

    #1202763
    Johny
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    Fair comments Paul.

    Let me ask – What isn’t click bait these days? LOL

    I agree the old system as well as the new system were/are wasteful. The difference being that the new system is multiplied many times over.

    I am not suggesting money is being diverted (even though it is), I am suggesting deception (incompetence) plays a larger role in attaining the money, simply by virtue of all the new channels out there and the number of “experts” that have spawned as a result of these new channels.

    Here is some thing I wrote on LinkedIn a while ago about this sort of deception:-

    https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/linkedin-articles-i-have-article-thats-been-viewed-nearly-mallyon?trk=prof-post

    I am not going to argue this guy is right or wrong, that’s for people to make up their own mind. All I am suggesting is that there are parts of what he says that make it even more important to question what we are being told. That includes doing our own research.

    There was a discussion on here recently about PC vs mobile. The one who instigated the discussion had all sorts of data and representations to show why mobile shouldn’t be the focus that it is. Noone agreed with him.

    How is a numbskull like me supposed to move forward if the people who are supposed to know what they are talking about can’t agree? Just as importantly, why should I spend my money with them to assist me if I am looking for such advice? I do research, but at some point I have to accept something I read/hear. Many don’t even do that, they come on a forum, ask a vague question, get a vague answer and then apply that, or not.

    I am not suggesting there should be guarantees of success, because that is an extremely difficult proposition. But it is testament to the large amounts of contradictory data out there.

    And in my mind that is one of the detriments of the internet and social media. Too much information and too many opinions stated as fact. And if researchers aren’t doing their job then they should be out of work. There may come a time where bots etc can decipher the data but they aren’t at the stage yet where they can necessarily disect it effectively.

    Again, an example from the promo product industry. One common stat goes that if I have an umbrella, it rains “x” number of times a year then there will be “y” number of views of the logo on said umbrella. Therefore based on average viewership a promotional product offers better ROI than other advertising such as TV because there are more views. It is nonsense for two very important reasons. 1) ROI is a return on investment which is a monetary equation, whereas this message suggests ROI is a return based on how many people view the product and 2) If I have 2 or more different umbrellas it completely distorts the result.

    This is how the organisations that promote promotional products show the benefits. It is nigh on impossible to find any meaningful stats that offer a real ROI.

    In the end, if I invest $500 on marketing (or promo products) that is my investment. If I cannot see that after a campaign I have gained in excess of $500 back, then it hasn’t been worthwhile.

    What I’d be interested to know is how many people are getting that tangible benefit and how many are paying good money after bad based on a false promise. We’ll never know the answer to that, but I reckon it is a growing number in part due to a larger number of players, but also because a larger number aren’t the experts they make out to be.

    My long response, hope it doesn’t get lost too.

    #1202764
    bb1
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    [USER=34822]@Johny[/USER] love your long response , think you are very close to the target on a lot of what you have said

    #1202765
    Paul – FS Concierge
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    Hi [USER=34822]@Johny[/USER].

    Great response and very legitimate concerns.

    When I read your response I thought often of [USER=53375]@bb1[/USER] and his very authentic warnings on these boards.

    My dad was susceptible to sales messages from door to door salespeople so he bought a $4K vacuum 20 years ago and a $6k roof when the going price was $3K.

    Of course, back in the day there were no cooling off period laws and he would never tell me about these extravagances until after the fact and by then it was too late. He was also a victim of direct mail messages and to this day, I don’t think he ever read a single Readers Digest despite years of subscription.

    Bless his soul, in this context, I am glad he is not here to be an internet user.

    I get what you are saying and see examples of people making promises they can’t keep all of the time.

    Having been a website owner for many years, I am subject to the same messages as everybody else and [USER=53375]@bb1[/USER] thread about the SEO telemarketers the other day is symptomatic of the reasons we should all be on the look out.

    in my view, the mobile thread doesn’t represent much more than a bunch of pros and interested observers arguing the toss about a issue around the periphery.

    To help cut through the noise, I suggest at least starting with very clear ideas around:

    1. Ask the question, “What is my business objective?”
    2. What are the possible strategies to help me achieve my goals
    3. Of the strategies I have identified, which will help me meet my objectives in the most efficient way (especially in regards to cost and timelines)
    4. After initial research seek out professionals that provide evidence around the results they get, their experience, their qualifications,processes they use and ask for references from customers with similar objectives to you. Check in with those customers. Ask them if the promises made have been kept, are they satisfied with the results the provider has achieved. Have the results helped you achieve your business goals etc
    5. Google the business name and the principal’s name. Use the word complaints or scams etc next to both. Check Linkedin profiles.
    6. Ask the providers questions 1 and 2 and 3 above.
    7. If it is a solo operator, assess the quality of person you are dealing with and there commitment to give value – if they have similar qualities to other providers you have had good experiences with in other fields, you can have more confidence in them.
    8. If it is a firm, ask who will be doing the work, what their qualifications and experience is and what quality systems are in place. Assess the firm on the basis of their track record of success.

    Talk to a few providers and ask them to tell you about their customer stories and why they made the strategic and tactical decisions they did and you will start to get a sense for who you are comfortable with.

    Like [USER=53375]@bb1[/USER] testimonials don’t mean too much to me but when I see case studies, my eyes start to light up.

    And the article you linked to is an example of learning about what I call Big Red Flags. In internet marketing, paid traffic, link farms and blog networks are amongst my personal Big Red Flags. The police acronym for Be On The Lookout BOLO, seems apt.

    The upside of good internet marketing is extraordinary. The Yellow Pages comes to mind which used to be valued at $10B. Google are effectively giving away the same exposure for free – it is extraordinary.

    I get all my sales leads for free right now because of this and have improved my sales revenue 7 times over in under 3 years.

    One thing we all have to realise and it is particularly relevant to micro business is that is a relationship between price and quality – it is not a linear relationship but it does exist.

    There is a similar relationship between price and risk.

    So with an unlimited budget, it would be easy to identify the market leader and most of us would be pretty comfortable that we are in the right hands.

    As the price we are prepared to pay goes down, the risk we need to assume goes up.

    That’s the way it is and we have to have a strategy to ameliorate the risk.

    And that is why having an assessment framework is so important.

    You know [USER=34822]@Johny[/USER] , my sister still has that damn vacuum but she never uses it. It is the most expensive and ugliest paperweight I have ever seen.

    #1202766
    Johny
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    Paul, we are probably moving away a little from the original theme here, but that’s OK. Better still if others where to jump in, and I feel it is putting a few things out there that I hope are worthwhile things to be thinking about.

    You and I are probably coming up with many of the same answers, but coming from different angles.

    Unlike yourself, I don’t have a website (Yes!! Shock! Horror! as I am told I cannot be in business without one.) That’s not to say I am anti website, just that I haven’t yet got to the point where I want one.

    That then makes the question whether I would be getting better results if I did have one and whether I would be getting better results if I paid for SEO, digital marketing etc.

    Some issues I have had with not having a website:-

    1. Yes, there are people who think you can only be trusted with a website (or non generic email address.)

    2. A website is a front door that allows people to find you and learn about you

    Some benefits of not having a website:-

    1. The more online presence I have had the more rubbish I attract. The additional work from non worthwhile enquiries got to the point where I had to remove my company information simply because I was spending too much time on enquiries that would never go anywhere.

    2. I am able to spent more time on directly linking to potential businesses where I can offer my services because of the fit. I use social media to research them and refine my message to them on a personal level.

    3. Further to point 2, much like your online presence I have generated business as a result of being on social media and grown business quite well as a result. But it is much better quality business because it is specifically aimed at those I see will get a benefit from what I do. Admittedly there is quite a cost in that based on time spent.

    4. I am not convinced my website would stand out in the sea of other companies that do exactly the same as I do, without spending a lot on the site itself as well as ongoing costs to keep it in the best spot to be seen.

    Overall, no one has yet convinced me that the benefits of having the website and paying the ongoing costs will provide me with a better result than what I am doing now. I would also say though that I am a rather pig headed bugger who is hard to get through to.

    For example, I accept many agree that having the website/non generic email is a trust thing. I on the other hand, think that is rubbish, simply because trust comes from actions. (Banks have websites. Who trusts them?) And I live in a world where there is next to no trust, so everything gets questioned and everything gets scrutinized or you don’t last long.

    I don’t think the average guy in small business does that to the extent they should, either because they don’t see it as a an issue (too trusting because someone seen as an expert said so), or because they don’t know how to.

    When I write an article about sourcing products from China, which is what I do, I always state my services may not be the best option, and I tell people if I think I can’t do something that will help them. That message doesn’t come from a website or marketing, that comes from interaction. Not sure that is so common these days, including in the area of marketing.

    #1202767
    bb1
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    Johny, post: 240622, member: 34822 wrote:
    Unlike yourself, I don’t have a website (Yes!! Shock! Horror! as I am told I cannot be in business without one.) That’s not to say I am anti website, just that I haven’t yet got to the point where I want one.

    1. The more online presence I have had the more rubbish I attract. The additional work from non worthwhile enquiries got to the point where I had to remove my company information simply because I was spending too much time on enquiries that would never go anywhere.

    .

    I can echo Johny’s comment, I do have a website, and it was on page one, and I soon let it slip to oblivion, and now only keep it, so that people can see I am a real person, not that I think a website proves anything, but I think the marketers have convinced the world that only real people have website.

    But my main reason for letting it slip into oblivion is as per Johny that it would only attract low quality clients, those wanting the job done for nothing, or would ring you for last minute work because they have a rental inspection due in an hour, or just dodgy clients. Sorry but my view is that for my business other forms are far better to get high quality clients. And some of my competitors have gone down the same path.

    #1202768
    Paul – FS Concierge
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    [USER=34822]@Johny[/USER] and [USER=53375]@bb1[/USER]

    When I was in recruitment, I often had the sales team coming back to the office with stories around small operators who had no need for staff because they liked the size of their business just the way it is.

    A lot of sole operators have more business than they can handle so the best approach for them if they have a website is use tactics to make sure they are not found unless the address is typed into the browser.

    Horses for courses.

    What I observe is that so many people start in the middle and not at the start.

    So they start with the solution eg, a shiny new website rather than the objective eg, be found by people looking for and ready to buy my services.

    ie, they skip these steps:

    1. Ask the question, “What is my business objective?”
    2. What are the possible strategies to help me achieve my goals
    3. Of the strategies I have identified, which will help me meet my objectives in the most efficient way (especially in regards to cost and timelines)

    So I see lots of examples of businesses with websites/blog/social media presences that have them because they were given advice to have them. but the “solution” is not meeting the business objectives consequently $$$ are spent and tears are shed.

    Very inefficient use of resources.

    On the other side of the coin, my website is meeting my business objectives to the point where I could ask for more.

    • It supplies my business with a new source of quality leads for free.
    • I do no prospecting at all so it saves me time and $$$
    • The messages seem to be on-point with buyer behaviour and as a result, I am rarely bothered by non-target market enquires
    • I now supply services to some iconic brands and have converted a website enquiry to a low to mid 6 figure job.
    • I have improved turnover by a factor of 7 in 2.5 years
    • The asset value of the business has more than quintupled
    • I have taken on a partner who has returned my original investment
    • I have started a month on/month off arrangement with my partner so only work in the business 6 months of the year.

    These are amongst the many benefits of having a solid online presence and are not even all of the highlights!

    I feel very passionately that people should not waste their money and equally that the upside of a solid plan can produce massive benefits.

    #1202769
    Johny
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    Horses for courses.

    No argument there.

    So I see lots of examples of businesses with websites/blog/social media presences that have them because they were given advice to have them. but the “solution” is not meeting the business objectives consequently $$$ are spent and tears are shed.

    And that is the whole point.

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