Are you one of the 65% of Aust. businesses w/out a website? What’s stopping you?

[John C.]

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JohnW, post: 89958 wrote:

A website is like a phone handset. It is a total waste of money, time and space unless you call someone or they call you.

A “cheap” website is like a business having an unlisted phone number. How many of you want an unlisted business number?

Many people steer clear of the web because they don’t understand it and unfortunately they are offered help by many who think they do but don’t.

I have a client with 2 websites and both are targeting the same market.

One was produced cheaply by an IT consultant using WordPress but the client then had to spend $3,000 – $5,000 per month in Google Adwords to get much the same traffic as the other site which cost him $15,000 to produce.

The $15,000 website has only been online 1 year and visitors to it are growing at around twice the rate as the cheap site.

So the cheap website is costing $40,000 per year in adwords and the client can’t afford anymore, so business growth via this site is stalled…

Can anyone tell me, where is the value in “cheap” website production costs?

Regs,
JohnW

It’s amazing that this discussion is still going! It’s obviously a contentious subject.

I understand what you’re saying John, and agree to a certain extent – what I don’t agree with is the correlation you’re drawing between the results the two websites in your example are delivering and the initial cost to build them.

Every $399 website that is built on a WordPress back-end with very minimal customisation and installation of a few plugins has the potential to deliver the same results as a $15,000 website, assuming the content on both websites is the same and the same effort is put into off-page SEO and on-page maintenance

I have seen more than a few $15,000 websites which deliver zero value, and have zero potential to deliver any value because they were designed with beauty and form in mind over function.

The thing I object to most about the idea that you need to spend $15,000 to get a website that delivers value, is that there is often no indication about what that $15,000 is being used to deliver. If it’s being used to create visually stunning Flash design and perhaps create a CMS from scratch in PHP that does nothing more than WordPress, then it is of no benefit over a $399 or even $199 or DIY website.

If a $15,000 website package involves keyword research, copywriting, on and off-page SEO, ongoing maintenance and regular article writing (as an example), then sure that website is likely to perform better than a $399 website, but not because the initial price was higher – rather because money was spent on services other than designing the initial website.

For some customers getting an initial website created which allows them to get their head around the concept and see for themselves what’s involved in maintaining a website is money well spent (not at $15k though!) even if it doesn’t deliver many results – assuming that the basics are done correctly, and with WordPress there’s little chance that they are not. When they are ready though, they can easily start doing all of the things that I guess were done in your $15,000 example above or pay for an SEO expert to do it for them.

I learned to drive in a beat up second-hand Ford Laser that got me from home to school and plenty of other places reliably enough for many years until I was ready financially and emotionally to purchase my first new car – I think I’m a better driver for having had that initial introduction to driving in a safe, slow and affordable car. I think cheap websites can be (but aren’t always) the equivalent of a safe, slow and affordable car, and $15,000 websites can be (but aren’t always) the equivalent of a flash (pun intended) red sports car that spends more time at the Mechanic’s than it does on the road. Unfortunately for most people in the market for a website it’s difficult to tell the difference.

Cheers,
John

[The Copy Chick]

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JohnW, post: 89958 wrote:

I have a client with 2 websites and both are targeting the same market.

One was produced cheaply by an IT consultant using WordPress but the client then had to spend $3,000 – $5,000 per month in Google Adwords to get much the same traffic as the other site which cost him $15,000 to produce.

The $15,000 website has only been online 1 year and visitors to it are growing at around twice the rate as the cheap site.

So the cheap website is costing $40,000 per year in adwords and the client can’t afford anymore, so business growth via this site is stalled…

Can anyone tell me, where is the value in “cheap” website production costs?

Regs,
JohnW

Hi John,

I’d really be interested to see the difference between the two sites and to know what extra features were included in the $15k site to generate such an enormous difference.

Not sure if you’re comfortable putting links here, but it really would be great to be able to make the comparison.

Cheers,
Anna

[JohnSheppard]

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onsiteTECHS, post: 90314 wrote:

Every $399 website that is built on a WordPress back-end with very minimal customisation and installation of a few plugins has the potential to deliver the same results as a $15,000 website, assuming the content on both websites is the same and the same effort is put into off-page SEO and on-page maintenance

I don’t think anyone said that a $500 word press install doesn’t have the potential of a $15,000 website…A $0 nothing install has that potential too.

onsiteTECHS, post: 90314 wrote:

I have seen more than a few $15,000 websites which deliver zero value, and have zero potential to deliver any value because they were designed with beauty and form in mind over function.

This is what they call a strawman arguement isn’t it? I dont think anyone said one should blow all their budget on pretty stuff.

onsiteTECHS, post: 90314 wrote:

The thing I object to most about the idea that you need to spend $15,000 to get a website that delivers value, is that there is often no indication about what that $15,000 is being used to deliver. If it’s being used to create visually stunning Flash design and perhaps create a CMS from scratch in PHP that does nothing more than WordPress, then it is of no benefit over a $399 or even $199 or DIY website.

This too is strawman. I don’t think anyone said you should hire incompetants

onsiteTECHS, post: 90314 wrote:

If a $15,000 website package involves keyword research, copywriting, on and off-page SEO, ongoing maintenance and regular article writing (as an example), then sure that website is likely to perform better than a $399 website, but not because the initial price was higher – rather because money was spent on services other than designing the initial website.

A website consists of all these things, not just design. For example, a business is not the building it resides in.

onsiteTECHS, post: 90314 wrote:

For some customers getting an initial website created which allows them to get their head around the concept and see for themselves what’s involved in maintaining a website is money well spent (not at $15k though!) even if it doesn’t deliver many results – assuming that the basics are done correctly, and with WordPress there’s little chance that they are not. When they are ready though, they can easily start doing all of the things that I guess were done in your $15,000 example above or pay for an SEO expert to do it for them.

I don’t know if many go in thinking that they are going to have to spend $15,000 extra do they? or maybe they do? My observation of most people is they get websites because everyone else has them, not as part of some strategy.

There are all kinds of considerations, like opportunity costs, time to market, etc, etc…For example, one can learn the ropes in a not so good location making no money and learning things, meanwhile the guy paying the high rent has earned 50 times as much…and doesn’t need to know the ropes because he/she paid a professional to do it…….the skill is in identifying the professional, not in becoming one yourself…unless of course you are a web developer.

[JohnW]

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onsiteTECHS, post: 90314 wrote:

I understand what you’re saying John, and agree to a certain extent – what I don’t agree with is the correlation you’re drawing between the results the two websites in your example are delivering and the initial cost to build them.

I learned to drive in a beat up second-hand Ford Laser that got me from home to school and plenty of other places reliably enough for many years
Hi John,
I think we are in complete agreement on many things.

Publishing web pages is simple and easy. Eight year old kids can do it. If pushed, I could create them using nothing more complex then the Notepad text editor that comes with Windows. The problem is both of these publishing methods would result in impossibly ugly, user-unfriendly pages that would achieve nothing.

If you jump from these juvenile page publishing methods to using a free design template provided by any CMS system, you have progressed no further, except you may have reduced the site’s ugliness a little and it will be faster to publish more irrelevant web pages.

At this point, you have achieved nothing more than a bigger hole in the ozone layer.

If you can’t get your information in front of potential customers, everything has been wasted.

My post related to a cheap website of 800+ web pages and a $15k website of 300+ pages.

The expensive site’s cost included research, design, copywriting, system development and publishing costs. The “cheap site” was quoted by a developer who only included WordPress system installation with his cheap price.

The problems for people wanting a website include:

• lack of transparency in the quote,
• incompetence of the quoting entity and
• incomplete disclosure of what is needed in the quotation.

If the web is a hobby for anyone, by all means spend a few years learning about how it and search engines work. If however you want to work on your business, not in it, you may want to spend some money on professional advice to achieve the most profits for your business.

You use the analogy of learning about how to drive a car. I humbly suggest it would be more accurate to liken it to becoming a motor mechanic.

You don’t need to become a motor mechanic to drive more enquiries from your website.

PS. I learned to drive on a 1948 Ford Prefect with a 3 speed manual box that you had to hold in 2nd gear when you went up a hill. I did not need to know how to replace its gasket to be able to drive to school.

Regs,
JohnW

[JohnW]

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The Copy Chick, post: 90319 wrote:

Hi John,

I’d really be interested to see the difference between the two sites and to know what extra features were included in the $15k site to generate such an enormous difference.

Not sure if you’re comfortable putting links here, but it really would be great to be able to make the comparison.

Cheers,
Anna
Hi Anna,
I sent you a PM to answer your questions.

A public post is not appropriate where a client is involved.
Regs,
JohnW

[DigitalDomination]

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JohnW, post: 90346 wrote:

The “cheap site” was quoted by a developer who only included WordPress system installation with his cheap price.

Regs,
JohnW

Hi John,

You’ve made some interesting comments on WordPress and blogs in a couple of different threads – have you ever used WordPress for yourself and done SEO with it?

[JohnW]

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DigitalDomination, post: 90350 wrote:

Have you ever used WordPress for yourself and done SEO with it?
Hi Steve,
Those of us that offer SEO services have to work with whatever page publishing system our client uses.

So, the answer is “yes”, I’ve worked with WordPress systems.

In so far as WordPresses’ inherent SEO attributes are concerned, WordPress is no different to a thousand and one other content management systems (CMS).

In terms of the SEO attributes of importance, any CMS must give the user control over defining the:

Page titles
URL names

That is it. Full stop. DAMN, THAT IS A SHORT LIST!

There are no more MAJOR HTML coding elements that any CMS can provide that will inherently generate a major impact on any page’s ranking for any search phrase.

So, WordPress like almost every other CMS system gives the user the operational control over these functions.

So, why do I suppose that this was not the answer you were expecting?

Regs,
JohnW

[Samith]

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Hi JohnW,

So what was the reason for you to stay away from building a website for your own business? All I see in your signature are your clients, I assume. Can we have a look at your website and get some inspiration? if you have one.

Cheer!
Samith

[John C.]

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JohnW, post: 90346 wrote:

Hi John,
I think we are in complete agreement on many things.

Yes I think so too. It’s not often that I disagree with anything in your posts, but I don’t think disagreement is a bad thing either.

JohnW, post: 90346 wrote:

Publishing web pages is simple and easy. Eight year old kids can do it.

Yes that’s very true – I’m amazed with what Eight year old kids can do in regards to technology! I don’t think many adults have the knowledge, curiousity, time and inclination to do it for themselves though, which is good for those of us that try to make a living in the technology space I guess.

JohnW, post: 90346 wrote:

If you jump from these juvenile page publishing methods to using a free design template provided by any CMS system, you have progressed no further, except you may have reduced the site’s ugliness a little and it will be faster to publish more irrelevant web pages.

At this point, you have achieved nothing more than a bigger hole in the ozone layer.

If you can’t get your information in front of potential customers, everything has been wasted.

My post related to a cheap website of 800+ web pages and a $15k website of 300+ pages.

The expensive site’s cost included research, design, copywriting, system development and publishing costs. The “cheap site” was quoted by a developer who only included WordPress system installation with his cheap price.

The problems for people wanting a website include:

• lack of transparency in the quote,
• incompetence of the quoting entity and
• incomplete disclosure of what is needed in the quotation.

If the web is a hobby for anyone, by all means spend a few years learning about how it and search engines work. If however you want to work on your business, not in it, you may want to spend some money on professional advice to achieve the most profits for your business.

I’m not arguing that research, design, copywriting, etc are not essential parts of creating a website that delivers and converts potential customers – they are integral parts of a website development process – and all of those things take time and therefore money.

What I was concerned about most from your original post was the potential conclusion that readers could draw between your example of a website that didn’t and couldn’t deliver results, and the fact that it was built cheaply on the WordPress platform – all things being equal, a WordPress website has more potential to deliver results than a custom developed website, because a larger percentage of the initial development costs can be devoted to the things that matter (i.e. quality relevant content, keyword rich URLs, backlinks, etc, etc, etc,) rather than paying a developer to custom code a website from scratch (in effect reinventing the wheel), unless of course a particular website requires features that are not available within WordPress or other CMS systems.

JohnW, post: 90346 wrote:

You use the analogy of learning about how to drive a car. I humbly suggest it would be more accurate to liken it to becoming a motor mechanic.

You don’t need to become a motor mechanic to drive more enquiries from your website.

PS. I learned to drive on a 1948 Ford Prefect with a 3 speed manual box that you had to hold in 2nd gear when you went up a hill. I did not need to know how to replace its gasket to be able to drive to school.

Good point and probably a better analogy. I do know that people who at least know that a gasket exists, and what it’s purpose in an engine is, are less likely to get ripped off by unscrupulous mechanics when they take their car in for a service – even if they don’t know how , or choose not to change the gasket themselves.

Of course people who have unlimited budgets don’t really need to worry about whether they are overpaying, as long as they get good results.

I’m glad for this thread and others like it, even if we don’t agree on anything, because business owners will be in a better position to know what they are buying when they sign up for either a $399, or $15k website – regardless of which one suits their particular requirements.

Cheers,
John

[JohnW]

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Samith, post: 90366 wrote:

Hi JohnW,

So what was the reason for you to stay away from building a website for your own business? All I see in your signature are your clients, I assume. Can we have a look at your website and get some inspiration? if you have one.

Cheer!
Samith
Hi Samith,
What you would see at my domain is something very old, incomplete and which should have been scrapped years ago.

No inspiration there.

My promotional strategy revolves around providing my Internet marketing and SEO service via third parties like web designers, developers, business consultants, coaches, PR companies, marketing consultants, etc. I am not trying to get my messages directly to the end client.

You could call FS my marketing communications website. There are certainly a lot of the types of businesses I want to talk with who hang out here. You don’t have to have pages on your own domain to use the Internet as a marketing tool.

Regs,
JohnW

[Aidan]

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Aaahhh, the olde form v function discussion again!

Its horses for courses people, not everyone needs a $15,000 website or even a $500 one.

I see fine little WP and other blog type websites get traffic in their niches without a penny spent on design and with little knowledge of SEO or even good content on their pages.

I also see very expensive, beautiful looking websites that do exactly what the owner wants but which will never get SE traffic – some folk don’t want people stumble across their sites, go figure!

It really depends on what you really want out of your website and what level of service you need (and can pay for).

If you want a sexy full design service complete with copy, blog posting, social media management, brand development, optimisation, advertising and link building there are several solutions available to you but they are not ‘cheap’.

Likewise, if you want a simple little website to work on yourself and keep the costs minimal or even non existent, there are several solutions available to you too.

Everything else is in between in many different forms…

[The Copy Chick]

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JohnW, post: 90346 wrote:

The expensive site’s cost included research, design, copywriting, system development and publishing costs. The “cheap site” was quoted by a developer who only included WordPress system installation with his cheap price.

The problems for people wanting a website include:

• lack of transparency in the quote,
• incompetence of the quoting entity and
• incomplete disclosure of what is needed in the quotation.

Great points John and this is what the forum I’m involved in will be educating participants about… that there’s more to it that simply whacking up a cheap site and expecting great results…. that they need to have a strategy in place to work with their other marketing activities, as well as what they should be aware of to avoid being ripped off.

We hope it will give those businesses not yet online the resources and information to make smart choices for their business, as well as set realistic expectations. From there they can decide the best course of action for themselves, armed with much more information.

JohnW, post: 90349 wrote:

Hi Anna,
I sent you a PM to answer your questions.

A public post is not appropriate where a client is involved.
Regs,
JohnW

Thanks for that – and I certainly understand the delicacy of posting client related info. I’m about to head out the door for a number of meetings, but hope to check it out later today.

Cheers

[JohnW]

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onsiteTECHS, post: 90368 wrote:

What I was concerned about most from your original post was the potential conclusion that readers could draw between your example of a website that didn’t and couldn’t deliver results, and the fact that it was built cheaply on the WordPress platform…
Hi John,
My apologies if people thought I was have a shot at any content management system. That was not my intent.

To be fair, I was commenting on discussions around “a couple of $100 for a full website” and similar.

All a few hundred dollars is likely to buy is a handful of files hidden on one of millions of web servers around the world.

If I was a prospective customer who asked you a question about your business, would you tell me “the answer is in one of the 50,000 files on my computer – find it yourself”? How much time would you expect me to spend hunting through your computer? I wouldn’t even touch your keyboard on my way out the door.

The world is full of people who can make the files and hide them but who appear to have no interest in producing a useful communications piece intended to grow a business or support it in some manner.

For a few hundred dollars you won’t get any significant research, copywriting, SEO, design work, CMS configuration, client education and training.

I can’t see how a collection of hidden files can be called a “full website” when it could not even afford a professional copywriting service for the prices discussed.

I think we are in complete agreement on this core issue.

Regs,
JohnW

[DigitalDomination]

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JohnW, post: 90355 wrote:

In terms of the SEO attributes of importance, any CMS must give the user control over defining the:

Page titles
URL names

That is it. Full stop. DAMN, THAT IS A SHORT LIST!

There are no more MAJOR HTML coding elements that any CMS can provide that will inherently generate a major impact on any page’s ranking for any search phrase.

Regs,
JohnW

Actually John there is more to the WordPress CMS that adds to SEO than just altering page titles and URL names.

I think you should build a site with WordPress instead of just tinkering with page titles and URL’s and you might find you’ll change your mind on how effective – and how complete – it is as a CMS and on-page SEO solution.

[JohnW]

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DigitalDomination, post: 90389 wrote:

Actually John there is more to the WordPress CMS that adds to SEO than just altering page titles and URL names.

I think you should build a site with WordPress instead of just tinkering with page titles and URL’s and you might find you’ll change your mind on how effective – and how complete – it is as a CMS and on-page SEO solution.
I did not say I only tinkered with page titles and URLs.

What I said was, “In terms of the SEO attributes of importance, any CMS must give the user control over defining the:
Page titles
URL names”

Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what special page publishing attributes WordPress offers that result in higher ranking web pages?

JohnW

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