Home – New Forums Selling online At a loss…who to choose as our website designer

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  • #1215938
    Byron Trzeciak
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    Hassle Free Website, post: 260387, member: 105019 wrote:
    Hmmm, I have done a few sites for under that and some have made a good return on the investment.

    Sometimes it can go the other way too, a 10k website is not going to help any more than a 2k website.

    I agree with you, let me clarify my point.

    The cost of a website that never generates a lead / sale is and always will be, 100% an expense to your business.

    However the cost of a website that organically generates leads and sales is an investment, the ROI can be significant considering your investment.

    Regardless if you invest 2k or 10k or even 100k the aim is to ensure your investment returns to the point that it becomes a profitable tool for you business to generate leads / sales.

    For most businesses the ROI / value of a website is intangible, they either don’t understand how powerful it can be as a tool so they focus on what they do understand – a) the price b) how it looks.

    My issue is that most businesses I speak with are focusing on the wrong sh_t. They care more about the colour of a button than they do about highlighting their unique benefits, improving trust, attracting organic customers and all the other elements that actually generate leads and sales.

    So it’s less about the price you pay and more about whether you have the right experience in place to assist your business get the results you need.

    #1215939
    Zava Design
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    Oziecom, post: 260433, member: 93591 wrote:
    I’d also suggest investigating website builder services like Squarespace, Wix, Weebly etc. With respect to the site developers that have offered services, you can stand up a pretty fair looking site with these services to get you going.

    I’ve done this with squarespace. Their design templates are top notch.

    Many a business owner has spent months of work and burned a ton of cash, when in reality a base website with a modern design will adequately do the job- at least in the interim.
    Oh gawd no, don’t go anywhere near Wix or Weebly if you want anything remotely near “professional”!!

    Squarespace is a reasonable website builder, but really only for those without the budget to work with a professional web designer/developer, which it sounds like the OP has for their business. And Shopify for ecommerce, though both those don’t allow for a huge amount of customisation if you’ve got some unique ideas or requirements.

    I’d throw my hat into the ring too (with plenty of clients that can vouch for me not neccesarily hanging out on the forums here ;) ), though you may already have a few to choose from already.

    #1215940
    DamienD
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    Can I ask why nobody is suggesting finding a good quality team on Upwork?

    I mean $15k for a website???

    Especially when it’s a new product, you don’t really know your market’s buying habits yet, you don’t have an existing site to privde tested deisgn data. That’s outrageous to me.

    You can find a fantastic team out of eastern europe to do a highly professional job for about $3k or less.

    I don’t want to offend anyone, but unless you need some kind of complex functionality which It doesn’t sound like you do, you just shouldn’t be looking at spending anywhere near that amount. That’s a great way new companies throw money down the rain.

    You would do far better to get a first generation website built cheaply, then keep a developer on hand to make regular changes/split tests. Because I Promise you that your first version of your webite wont’ convert very well, and design changes will need to be made.

    #1215941
    Zava Design
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    Anyone that says that any price is too high or too low without knowing the client’s requirements is talking hot air. Perhaps spend a little more time than a single day on the forums before you go around insulting those here who spend a lot of their own time giving free advice to others.

    “Because I Promise you that your first version of your webite wont’ convert very well”
    – Most likely very true finding someone cheap via Upwork, not neccesarily true if you find a good designer/developer that knows what they’re doing, and delivers a little more than just a “website”.

    Oh, and note I haven’t given any figures, as funny enough there are many local freelancers that can produce extremely good results for a lot less than some seem to think. But like I said, any kind of figures are meaningless without knowing the scope of what someone wants/needs. Cheers.

    #1215942
    DamienD
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    Hey Zava, it seems I’ve hit a nerve, my apologies, I wasn’t intending to insult anyone.

    In my defence, this thread has had only extremely high prices bandied about for a website with a singluar product which is outrageous.

    Not to mention, it’s a new business. That means a LOT of quesitons and assumptions are made and not answered until things are live. It’s a case of the new owners can’t possibly know the answers needed to develop a high performing website.

    I’ve been working with companies for over a decade, I’ve watched clients throw so much good money away – rogue SEO providers, unregulated online advertising, and Web design comes close to the top of those lists every time.

    Obviously web design and UX is extremely important – And I’m sure there are really amazing freelancers in Aus offering better prices (perhaps yourself included) and I’d definitley rather keep the money local and support Australians – BUT so far in this thread, nobody has batted an eyelid at the costings being thrown around to the OP at present and I thought something needs to be said on that.

    But no matter how many websites I build or get built (I’m not a web developer, but I always build the site first on my own to do split testing and feeling out the market before I bring in the paid professionals), and no matter how much is paid for those websites, I never see an ideal sales funnel occuring out of the gate because it’s just impossible to know without first doing a good amount of testing and refining.

    Take the OP for example – They want to market a product. There could be 20 different paths they could try to lead a prospective client towards the sale.. Get them to send an email first then a phone call? Try to get a direct phone call? Maybe book a consult time online? A free whitepaper? What’s the primary first step you want web visitors to take? Will there be live chat support?

    The answers to those quesitons can never be known ahead of time, so yes, ongoing revising and rebuilding is always required. ESPECIALLY for a new business where nobody has any definitive data whatsoever about how prospective clients would best be led through the buying cycle.

    EDIT: In my opinon, no new business should be spending that kind of money on web design as it’s likely to be a huge waste. Not because the designers won’t do a professional job, but because the ROI simply won’t be there.

    #1215943
    Zava Design
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    My point is, you still have zero idea what the OP wants within his budget. It could include amongst other things:
    – Target audience research
    – A/B target audience testing
    – Any range and variety of functions on the site
    – Scalability to be able to handles tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of users
    – SEO research, planning and implementation
    …and probably a dozen other POSSIBLE inclusions.

    Byron probably summed up the budget thing well above:
    “Regardless if you invest 2k or 10k or even 100k the aim is to ensure your investment returns to the point that it becomes a profitable tool for you business to generate leads / sales.”

    It’s impossible to say that any budget is too much OR too little without knowing a hell of a lot more both of what the OP wants, and what they expect as an outcome.

    And a good web service provider (I’ll avoid “web designer” as many of us do a lot more than that, unlike many web designers you will find on Upwork – though not all) would be able to walk a client through these possible requirements, inform them and help them feel comfortable with what they decide. The issue seems to be the OP hasn’t found that kind of person, irrespective of their budget.

    #1215944
    Zava Design
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    And look, I’ve had a loooooooooooong career in digital now, I’ve seen clients being charged way too much, and some a little too low – in MY opinion. But the funny thing is, even the majority of times when I believe a client has been overcharged, they were almost always happy with the results and the longer term outcome, mainly because it was always a lot more than just the 1s and 0s that made up the site. I guess that’s why I wasn’t the boss of the digital studios I worked for at that time. ;)

    It may be that the OP’s current needs may be best addressed by a website done as cheaply as possible, but with the information we currently have there is no way to know that. That’s kind of all I’m trying to say (in a very long winded way… ;) )

    #1215945
    DamienD
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    Zava Design, post: 260905, member: 34615 wrote:
    My point is, you still have zero idea what the OP wants within his budget. It could include amongst other things:
    – Target audience research
    – A/B target audience testing
    – Any range and variety of functions on the site
    – Scalability to be able to handles tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of users
    – SEO research, planning and implementation
    …and probably a dozen other POSSIBLE inclusions.

    This is a fair enough statement – perhaps the scope is much larger than the OP makes it sound.

    It still behooves anyone wanting to provide guidance that there may well be better priced solutions and to be wary of overspending doesn’t it? To me, that’s very solid business advice.

    You are very hard on upwork – I’m guessing you’ve just wrapped every shifty Pakistani/indian/philippino experience you’ve heard into one big package with every other upwork company. Actually it’s also full of some extremely powerful networks of experts, you just have to stay away from the very cheap end.

    #1215946
    DamienD
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    Zava Design, post: 260906, member: 34615 wrote:
    But the funny thing is, even the majority of times when I believe a client has been overcharged, they were almost always happy with the results and the longer term outcome

    This is psychology 101 though – the more you invest in something, the stronger the cognitive bias to find reasons to be pleased with the investment. So that trend will always be there.

    Zava Design, post: 260906, member: 34615 wrote:
    It may be that the OP’s current needs may be best addressed by a website done as cheaply as possible, but with the information we currently have there is no way to know that. That’s kind of all I’m trying to say (in a very long winded way… ;) )

    That’s a strawman argument since I never suggested they should do it as cheaply as possible. That would be horrible advice.

    Only they should not have to pay that much to get a great job done.

    #1215947
    Zava Design
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    That’s the thing about guessing, you have as much (maybe more?) chance of being wrong as right. ;)

    I actually got some of my initial freelance work (while dwelling on the idea of leaving full-time employment) from Elance (as part of Upwork was previously), but never charged less than what I did otherwise anyway and got enough work to convince me freelancing was feasible. Since then I haven’t had to revert to them again, referalls and repeat business being plenty.

    I also used resources from Elance time to time, and they could be fine. However there has been a noticeable drop in quality since they closed Elance down and became Upwork.

    Upwork is also not my competitor, any more than a larger web studio charging 6 figure sums for web applications for corporate clients is (the area I used to work in). There’s a very healthy gap between the Upwork type budgets and the 20k+ budgets agencies might charge in Australia, anyone looking at Upwork would not be my target audience.

    Anyway, we should be focusing on giving advice to the OP, not on what either of us has or has not done. (y)

    #1215948
    MikeDav
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    How long is a piece of string. For some quite simple applications you can get a perfectly fine website for $2k while for other applications you might not get any change out of $50k. My advice would be to find someone local who can show you plenty of reference sites. Talk to others who have used these people and get their opinion.

    It’s also worth remembering that the bulk of the cost is going to come after you launch the website in terms of promoting the website with PPC, SEO and offline marketing.

    #1215949
    Paul – FS Concierge
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    Long-standing members will tell you that I can’t resist jumping into discussions like this one :-)

    Firstly, it is a good discussion and a lot of the points made are very valid.

    I come to this discussion as both a business owner that relies on referrals from existing customers and from organic search as my sole source of new business.

    As well, I am a keen student and observer of digital marketing and human behaviour in general.

    My view is that asking for a website doesn’t start from the start. Consequently, the outcome sought might be overlooked.

    And it is the outcome that is the basis of any discussion of this nature should take place.

    Eg, I want a digital presence in the B2B space that will allow my business to be found by the most amount of people. I subsequently want the most amount of people to make a purchase or to get in touch with me.

    That could be one type of discussion but their could be a million more.

    I have been asked to consult or provide digital services by people I know and I have found that they all – so far – did not have a USP to build a brand story and buying proposition around, so building a website without a USP, in these examples, is a bit pointless.

    This is because the website supports why somebody would buy from me = so the business should be very clear about that before starting a site or should be prepared to engage some experts or a unicorn around same.

    #1215950
    valentlau
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    wow what a thread. I think op should take steps.

    You don’t have a logo, a brand style guide. Do that 1st, don’t mix it all up into a website and ecart all in a bag of mess. 1 thing at a time.

    Well, if you need help msg me and I’ll send you my designer.

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