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  • #979913
    NathanB
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    Interesting topic worthy of discussion.

    I recently suggested Odesk as a possible to solution to a logo/design query in another thread here on FS to which Bridiej also replied by quoting me and suggesting supporting a local designer.

    I was wondering who shares what views and why relating to out-sorucing work overseas.

    Nathan

    #1118334
    AGMBris
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    Hi

    I use ODesk for web programming and local designers for the layout/design elements. It works really well.

    I can understand the reaction too I guess because this forum is about promotion of local business people. So, point taken. However, in today’s “small” world, there are so many options that can save us money and I think it is ok to be aware of them and use them if it suits your business model.

    I am mindful of promoting local talent and businesses as well but it comes to cost for the business bottom line too.

    I guess it is very much a popular discussion especially given the position of retailers in Australia that are being smashed by online pricing overseas. There was another post today regards the purchase of electronic equipment as well so I guess we work in the way that best suits us financially and if we can support only local then fantastic..

    Just thoughts…

    #1118335
    Greg_M
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    Good topic

    I actually believe over time anyone relying on the digital world is going to be in an international market whether they like it or not, your only edge will be talent and communication ability, the communication factor is cultural as well as language based.

    As an example, I use Elance in my estimating work, tried to find some one here to fit the bill (via Elance et al), there was a couple but their belief in how valuable their talent was, was way too high, good luck to them if they can get it but I was able to fit the bill with a tertiary qualified, industry experienced fella in the US, running over 8K of specialised software who makes himself available up to 18 hours a day for $18.00 per hour (less the Elance take).

    He was one of the most expensive, if I’d been prepared to tackle potential cultural and language barriers the same skills were advertised for $5.00.

    US admin staff with Harvard MBA’s and Fortune 500 experience, completely IT literate were running at between $20 and $30.

    Also noticed quite a few Australian companies using this talent base over a range of sectors … noticed my bank and expensive telecommunications supplier aren’t hesitating either.

    The whole experience was very sobering, almost frightening if you think your current paradigm is a safe one.

    Having said all that I’m currently working with local freelancers (off this forum) who obviously really know their stuff and I’m happy to pay their rates … see value that I can’t get by shopping on price, here or OS.

    You might say that you have to support local talent and I agree up to a point but these people OS need to feed their kids just like we do and they’re doing whatever it takes to make it … if the roles were reversed I’d be doing the same thing.

    I think you can stick your head in the sand, cross your fingers and hope, or clearly define your talent and get ready to compete, cause it’s coming like it or not.

    #1118336
    bluepenguin
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    I find it a bit frustrating that everyone seems to put Australian workers down because they charge too much.

    It’s not really their fault that the cost of living here is vastly more than the cost of living in a 3rd world country.

    #1118337
    NathanB
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    bluepenguin, post: 132841 wrote:
    I find it a bit frustrating that everyone seems to put Australian workers down because they charge too much.

    It’s not really their fault that the cost of living here is vastly more than the cost of living in a 3rd world country.

    That being said, it is their problem to bare, not the consumers. Australia is one of the most (if not THE most) expensive countries in relation to hiring creatives or producing digital products – Melbourne is the place to be right now if you are good at what you do. One thing worth noting is as a generality, Australian creatives are often very good at what they do too.

    I fear as the world continues to grow smaller there will be a major self correction in the creative/design industry which will see many hard working and capable Australians lose a significant amount of professional value.

    It is not something I look forward to but it is something I accept will happen.

    #1118338
    Stuart B
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    bluepenguin, post: 132841 wrote:
    I find it a bit frustrating that everyone seems to put Australian workers down because they charge too much.

    It’s not really their fault that the cost of living here is vastly more than the cost of living in a 3rd world country.

    I don’t think anyone is trying to say that it is the fault of designers as to why they are more expensive. It’s just a fact of circumstance.

    #1118339
    Lahay
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    Hi!

    I would like to weigh into this discussion, as an Australian clothing manufacturer.
    I believe there is a place for buying/manufacturing overseas, but I really object to Australian businesses not even trying local manufacturers first. I have had literally 100’s of businesses contact my company over the last 16 years with the same story- they have had their clothing range made overseas, has come back wrong sizing/ style/ & even fabric! My company then has to charge to alter these mistakes, costing the customer more than it would have orginally cost them to have the garment made in Australia!

    I would also like to challenge our definition of success in business. Is it always money & our bottom line, or is it supporting our local economy/community, reducing our carbon footprint by reducing unnecessary shipping & creating great families for our kids to be raised in?

    I buy Australian made wherever possible, both professionally & personally. Yes, it costs a little more, but in my opinion, well worth it:)

    #1118340
    Nikita
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    Interesting topic. I do outsourcing overseas for the talent that simply isn’t available here (yes, you heard me right). As an example – Illustrations – it costs to produce specific type of illustration around $1000 overseas.

    Remember that guys who produce work for $5,$10,$15 know that it’s extremely cheap in the countries where the orders coming from, so don’t expect some groundbreaking work to be produced for that kind of money.

    So if you want quality work – look for decent designers here or overseas, doesn’t really matter. For example in Moscow quality logo designs cost triple to what they cost here – it’s cheaper to outsource to Australia ;).

    About $20 logo – As a business owner you will always know that you have $20 Logo – that will stick with you for a long period of time.

    #1118341
    Zava Design
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    NathanB, post: 132842 wrote:
    I fear as the world continues to grow smaller there will be a major self correction in the creative/design industry which will see many hard working and capable Australians lose a significant amount of professional value.

    I don’t agree. I believe the benefits far outweigh the cons (I certainly wouldn’t be living/travelling through South America while running my Aus design business), and for good creatives there will always be good paying work.

    Will average creatives be forced to look for a new career? Yes, which can’t be a bad thing imho.

    #1118342
    JohnTranter
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    One of the first questions asked from the last two phone calls I’ve had from prospective clients was “Do you use local designers?”

    I think some people are being burnt by outsourcing design specifically. One client explained it to me thus :
    “Marketing in India is done very differently to Australia. Over there it’s about bright colours and garish designs which simply won’t work in Australia”

    His words, not mine. Rightly or wrongly, that is the perception and that’s why some people look for local talent.

    It’s not about ability, it’s about different cultures and, in design, that can be important.

    #1118343
    Stuart B
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    The world is changing, everything is going online, the world is getting smaller. This is hitting many retailers particularly hard as they try to find their feet in this new arena in order to stay competitive and relevant.

    The flip side of the coin is that some retailers are focusing on – wait for it, really great customer service and experience! **GASP**

    That’s something which can’t be replicated by an overseas supplier, can transcend the small financial gains to be made by going online / overseas, and create customer loyalty!

    I think of this period of transition that we’re in at the moment as being a bit like a natural bushfire… It sweeps through every now and then, destroys a lot, but gets rid of a lot of dead wood, and then leaves room for a lot of new and fresh businesses to thrive.

    I come into contact with a lot of business owners who for a long long time have managed to get by with poor product / poor service / poor attitude, and have generally benefited from customer ignorance or lack of choice. Then they complain about the changes because their stagnant business approach doesn’t work anymore.

    Well with people becoming more savvy online it seems like that era is coming to an end, and many who are unwilling to adapt move on. The change marches on and I feel like in the long term it’s probably a good thing.

    Now before anyone gets angry, I agree with the previous poster totally… It’s NOT always about money, and I too prefer and try to support Aussie businesses where possible. But at the same time, if people see better value / experience / choice elsewhere, that’s where they’ll go.

    #1118344
    NathanB
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    LemonChip, post: 132906 wrote:
    The world is changing, everything is going online, the world is getting smaller. This is hitting many retailers particularly hard as they try to find their feet in this new arena in order to stay competitive and relevant.

    The flip side of the coin is that some retailers are focusing on – wait for it, really great customer service and experience! **GASP**

    That’s something which can’t be replicated by an overseas supplier, can transcend the small financial gains to be made by going online / overseas, and create customer loyalty!

    I think of this period of transition that we’re in at the moment as being a bit like a natural bushfire… It sweeps through every now and then, destroys a lot, but gets rid of a lot of dead wood, and then leaves room for a lot of new and fresh businesses to thrive.

    I come into contact with a lot of business owners who for a long long time have managed to get by with poor product / poor service / poor attitude, and have generally benefited from customer ignorance or lack of choice. Then they complain about the changes because their stagnant business approach doesn’t work anymore.

    Well with people becoming more savvy online it seems like that era is coming to an end, and many who are unwilling to adapt move on. The change marches on and I feel like in the long term it’s probably a good thing.

    Now before anyone gets angry, I agree with the previous poster totally… It’s NOT always about money, and I too prefer and try to support Aussie businesses where possible. But at the same time, if people see better value / experience / choice elsewhere, that’s where they’ll go.

    Pretty much nailed it…

    10 years ago, Countries like India had only a fraction of (if any) market penetration in Australia. New platforms like Odesk and Freelancer and can only improve and everything that’s happening in all about the making life better for the consumer.

    I’m not saying buying local is bad, nor am I saying one option is superior to the other. I’m just saying the future is going to have a massive impact on the creative industry and I think that’s not necessarily a good thing for our local market.

    #1118345
    bridiej
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    LemonChip, post: 132906 wrote:
    The world is changing, everything is going online, the world is getting smaller. This is hitting many retailers particularly hard as they try to find their feet in this new arena in order to stay competitive and relevant.

    The flip side of the coin is that some retailers are focusing on – wait for it, really great customer service and experience! **GASP**

    That’s something which can’t be replicated by an overseas supplier, can transcend the small financial gains to be made by going online / overseas, and create customer loyalty!

    Yes!

    I’ve had a number of clients who, on receiving their first transcript, have been thrilled with the quality and express how much better it is than what they’d had before, when they’d sent their audio offshore and paid a fraction of what I charge.

    Am I saying that people on Odesk/in other countries such as India aren’t capable of doing a good job? No, but based on the majority of end results I’ve seen and the horror stories I’ve heard about, I’m a big believer in “you get what you pay for”.

    Bit like business cards: so many people get theirs from Vistaprint because they can’t see the value in spending a bit more for a far superior card that gives a much better impression of them and their business.

    #1118346
    NathanB
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    bridiej, post: 133017 wrote:
    Yes!

    I’ve had a number of clients who, on receiving their first transcript, have been thrilled with the quality and express how much better it is than what they’d had before, when they’d sent their audio offshore and paid a fraction of what I charge.

    Am I saying that people on Odesk/in other countries such as India aren’t capable of doing a good job? No, but based on the majority of end results I’ve seen and the horror stories I’ve heard about, I’m a big believer in “you get what you pay for”.

    Bit like business cards: so many people get theirs from Vistaprint because they can’t see the value in spending a bit more for a far superior card that gives a much better impression of them and their business.

    And over time this will change.

    The horror stories are a perhaps a deterrent for the moment but as I have mentioned the system in place can only get better and better and these problems will reside with more regulation.

    I am not saying anyone has to worry today but I am saying the world is changing rapidly and price point is going to be biggest challenge four our local market as the cost of living here is dramatically more expensive.

    #1118347
    Johny
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    The flip side of the coin is that some retailers are focusing on – wait for it, really great customer service and experience! **GASP**

    That’s something which can’t be replicated by an overseas supplier, can transcend the small financial gains to be made by going online / overseas, and create customer loyalty!

    Why can’t it?

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