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  • #1118348
    bridiej
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    NathanB, post: 133022 wrote:
    And over time this will change.

    The horror stories are a perhaps a deterrent for the moment but as I have mentioned the system in place can only get better and better and these problems will reside with more regulation.

    I am not saying anyone has to worry today but I am saying the world is changing rapidly and price point is going to be biggest challenge four our local market as the cost of living here is dramatically more expensive.

    We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one ;)

    I remember in the UK when the likes of Easyjet and Ryanair came alone, all the big airlines were up in arms because their flights were so cheap they’d never be able to compete with them and would go out of business. But guess what? That never happened. There’s room in the marketplace for everyone – those who want to get to their destination as cheap as possible and those who are willing to pay a premium for inflight entertainment, meals and comfort. Same with business services.

    Meet me back here in 2022 and we’ll see which of us was right :)

    #1118349
    NathanB
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    bridiej, post: 133025 wrote:
    We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one ;)

    I remember in the UK when the likes of Easyjet and Ryanair came alone, all the big airlines were up in arms because their flights were so cheap they’d never be able to compete with them and would go out of business. But guess what? That never happened. There’s room in the marketplace for everyone – those who want to get to their destination as cheap as possible and those who are willing to pay a premium for inflight entertainment, meals and comfort. Same with business services.

    Meet me back here in 2022 and we’ll see which of us was right :)

    You seem to have miss understood me.

    Zava probably summed it up well when he said…

    ZAVA, post: 133025 wrote:
    Will average creatives be forced to look for a new career? Yes, which can’t be a bad thing imho.

    There will always be room and work for quality designers that can produce great results, although I think the future will be more about delivering outcomes (like bottom-line impact) than producing creative work.

    The only bold claim I am really making is that too many locals over charge and under deliver. These are the people that will no longer exist in 2022.

    If you can’t DEMONSTRATE a MEASURABLE outcome that validates your pricing model, than as it was labelled earlier in this thread by Condor… all you are doing is making pretty pictures. And if all you are doing is making pretty pictures… well, I can get that done on Odesk for 1/15 of the price your charging.

    #1118350
    Nathan Hartnett
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    This is always a fun discussion:) When we looked to have someone build our website, we approached 6-7 Australian companies first, and were quoted between $30,000 and $100,000 for the e-commerce platform we wanted. We had it built in India (using elance) for $2,500, and then replicated it ourselves across our numerous e-commerce businesses. One caveat though, is that we knew exactly what we wanted. If you don’t know exactly what you want (or need), it can be a lot more difficult to use an overseas provider (particularly true for building websites). In our experience there is almost always a “time” cost involved with using cheaper overseas providers, but we usually find that it’s worth it. What we like seeing though is western providers starting to work for themselves at home. For example, we’ve used Aussie graphic designers who are very competitive on price, as they do a bit of work for themselves. This is where I think we could see a shift back to “cottage” industries. I’m a lifestyle fanatic, and I would love it if all of our providers either did their work from home, or while travelling around the world. It’s great helping people find their own personal freedom, and I certainly don’t care where they come from.

    As for physical products, we just came back from a factory visit in China, and it is amazing how much they have improved in just the last five years, both in quality, product, and the professionalism of the factory and employee environment.

    I think there is still massive opportunity in the online retail space, as we can provide local flair, super fast shipping, and a local return address (a massive benefit for nervous customers). It’s pretty time limited though, as once Australia get’s some decent fulfillment centres, overseas companies can provide all of those benefits as well as providing lower cost, excellent customer service.

    My personal experience with Australian customer service versus OS customer service (I live in Thailand, but also deal with quite a few US providers) would suggest that we Aussie companies have significant room for improvement in that area.

    #1118351
    NathanB
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    allhart, post: 133031 wrote:
    we aussie companies have significant room for improvement.

    this.

    #1118352
    Zava Design
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    NathanB, post: 133026 wrote:
    If you can’t DEMONSTRATE a MEASURABLE outcome that validates your pricing model, than as it was labelled earlier in this thread by Condor… all you are doing is making pretty pictures. And if all you are doing is making pretty pictures… well, I can get that done on Odesk for 1/15 of the price your charging.
    Wow, way to take someone’s comments and bend them to your different view.

    As a professional designer, I do not “just make pretty pictures”, and hence why channels such as Odesk and the like are not a threat to me in the slightest. I create sites that have a measurable positive impact on a range of factors, varying depending on the client I’m working for. Those factors may include but are not limited to: usability improvements; user pathways; visitor numbers; response rates; brand recognition and recollection; comprehension. And I must do something right, since over 90% of my business comes from returning clients and referrals. Yes, 90%. And they’re all small businesses, but small businesses who understand or are open to being informed on why good, effective design makes a difference.

    And looking at your Click Print Save site, which I presume you had done by an outsource worker, without even doing research into your target audience I can instantly see probably a dozen aspects that could be improved that would likely increase results significantly in the above factors I mentioned. Some of which are easily measurable, others (such as brand recognition) are indeed harder to measure, though I think most companies appreciate there is value there, hence the “big bucks” spent by some companies on logos.

    #1118353
    Zava Design
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    NathanB, post: 133032 wrote:

    we aussie companies have significant room for improvement.

    this.
    Any company/worker/freelancer who does not think they can improve is deluding themselves, no matter where they are from.

    #1118354
    NathanB
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    Zava Design, post: 133067 wrote:
    Any company/worker/freelancer who does not think they can improve is deluding themselves, no matter where they are from.

    Completely agree with this too. I just happen to believe the the India/Asian market is improving at a rate that is faster then our market.

    #1118355
    Zava Design
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    NathanB, post: 133069 wrote:
    Completely agree with this too. I just happen to believe the the India/Asian market is improving at a rate that is faster then our market.
    And I’m getting more and more work “fixing” issues that have arisen from clients outsourcing to Asian creative/dev market, so go figure?!?!

    Just as with the Oz market, the entry level is becoming easier and easier, and so the overall quality is dropping. No skin of my nose, means booming business for me and those I know in the industry, whatever your personal experience may be. :D

    #1118356
    bridiej
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    Zava Design, post: 133073 wrote:
    And I’m getting more and more work “fixing” issues that have arisen from clients outsourcing to Asian creative/dev market, so go figure?!?!

    Just as with the Oz market, the entry level is becoming easier and easier, and so the overall quality is dropping. No skin of my nose, means booming business for me and those I know in the industry, whatever your personal experience may be. :D

    Ditto…

    #1118357
    NathanB
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    Zava Design, post: 133098 wrote:
    And I’m getting more and more work “fixing” issues that have arisen from clients outsourcing to Asian creative/dev market, so go figure?!?!

    Just as with the Oz market, the entry level is becoming easier and easier, and so the overall quality is dropping. No skin of my nose, means booming business for me and those I know in the industry, whatever your personal experience may be.

    I have heard similar stories although I my assessment is that the vast majority of the poor work coming from outsourcing/Odesk is simply due to poor client-contract communication, not because the contractor just produce poorer quality work. Me on the other hand, I invest all the time that is required to ensure no such issue.

    For example – in the recent 60min APP thread, although you could get an APP made on Odesk (and I support people who try), it is a feet I have yet to try myself because I have great guy locally and I am just not prepared to micro manage such a large project.

    I can micro manage a logo project and save hundreds over a few days, I could probably micro manage an App project two and save thousands, but It would eat up all my time and limit me to the one project, so in that sense… I am happy to pay extra for peace of mind.

    #1118358
    Zava Design
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    NathanB, post: 133108 wrote:
    I have heard similar stories although I my assessment is that the vast majority of the poor work coming from outsourcing/Odesk is simply due to poor client-contract communication, not because the contractor just produce poorer quality work. Me on the other hand, I invest all the time that is required to ensure no such issue.
    You can believe all you want. As someone who has worked with outsource resources for the best part of 15 years, the micro-management required to create work of the quality I would deem “professional”, often adds more cost than if I engaged a local resource.

    And I’m saying that as someone who is now the outsourced resource for many companies, difference being is that I have extensive experience in the Aus web industry and thus have a certain level of work quality that matches the expectations within that. Hence why I can charge a lot more, yet still less than if I was still based in Australia.

    You can find decent workers on Odesk/Elance and the like, but it is a lottery ticket/needle in a haystack to find them. Even the so called “high rated” freelancers, I’ve seen their work, the majority of it is below average at best. Most of their clients don’t realise this, though when it comes to a badly coded site with less than optimum site structure and architecture, they may not even understand how their business could be improved by a well designed, or how their site is performing badly in SEO terms due to bad code.

    And app development… boy, that’s another pandora’s box of trouble. I take it you haven’t been through Apple’s testing and approval process much? If you had, you would know that using a iOS developer who is not top notch, you will likely double or triple your development time, and in some cases need to rebuild from scratch, no matter how much you “micro manage” as a project manager.

    And tell me, do you have the same attitude in regards to architects? How about doctors? Dentists? That you can micro-manage someone with lesser abilities to solve your problems in these areas?

    #1118359
    NathanB
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    Zava Design, post: 133113 wrote:
    ]
    And tell me, do you have the same attitude in regards to architects? How about doctors? Dentists? That you can micro-manage someone with lesser abilities to solve your problems in these areas?

    Have you heard of Doctors with Out Borders?

    http://www.hollows.org.au

    The same eye operation that can cost $10,000+ here in Australia is being performed by world classed trained western doctors in poverty stricken countries for as little as $25.

    Why?

    Because the task can be completed for that little.

    Yes a doctor is worth the years of training and experience they possess how ever this example demonstrates how the cost of living in one country has DRAMATICALLY effected the prices we pay for such services.

    #1118360
    Zava Design
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    You just made the funniest comment in the whole thread! Thanks for that, you gave me a laugh.

    First of all, Doctors Without Borders (or Médecins Sans Frontières as we call it in Australia), is a completely different organisation than the Fred Hollows Foundation.

    And as someone who’s spent a bit of time in the field with both organisations, and have a great deal of respect for the work they both do, I can tell you from first hand knowledge that the work that the Hollows Foundation does is done far differently than how it’s done in Australia. The equipment is often older, the facilities are less modern, and the after operation care is not as comprehensive as it may be after a similar operation in Australia. Now for the majority of those being treated it’s still a step up from the medical care they’ve been getting, but that still doesn’t change the fact that you’re comparing apples to oranges.

    And actually, this might be a great analogy for the rest of this discussion: If someone really wanted to, they could go and have their eye operation done by the Hollows Foundation in India. It will be done with older equipment; the operating theatre may not be quite as sterile as it would be in Australia; and if something went wrong they may not have quite the expertise to deal with the complications. But in the majority of cases, it should be fine. Should be.

    Or, they can have the operation at home, in the best facilities money can buy; in the knowledge that the environment is very hygienic; and if anything does go wrong they have the best medical knowledge at their disposal to deal with it.

    Does the latter guarantee success any more than the former? Not necessarily. But does it give a much higher chance of success? Yes it does.

    —-

    Now let’s bring it back to the design industry (and this long post will be my last on the matter):

    Having a background working in digital studios at “the big end of town”, working with clients such as the Commonwealth Bank, Toyota, Panasonic, Arnott’s and the like, I have often been asked why clients like these are happy to pay $30,000/50,000/$100,000 for a website when they can get the “same thing” done for half that price or less if they worked with a smaller studio, or a freelancer. And the answer is really quite simple: They are paying for a guarantee of quality, for a proven track record of results, for reliability and a level of service that means the outcome is basically guaranteed.

    And whether you’re talking $50,000 for a website… or $10,000… or $5,000… or $500… each step down is a little less of that “guarantee”, and a little more chance and luck. And it’s completely up to you how far down you want to step, but don’t delude yourself and what you are and what you’re not getting.

    But I’m done with this thread, I have no real interest in “converting” anyone, I have plenty of work from those clients who appreciate quality, value, and what I deliver to their bottom line. Which, just quietly, is far more tangible than most marketers I’ve worked with over the years. :)

    #1118361
    NathanB
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    Zava Design, post: 133121 wrote:
    And actually, this might be a great analogy for the rest of this discussion: If someone really wanted to, they could go and have their eye operation done by the Hollows Foundation in India. It will be done with older equipment; the operating theatre may not be quite as sterile as it would be in Australia; and if something went wrong they may not have quite the expertise to deal with the complications. But in the majority of cases, it should be fine. Should be.

    I’m glad you pointed this out… as I believe you.

    All I have been trying to say is that there are a lot of designers operating in Aus, claiming they produce Australian quality when really they are producing the above (anology) based quality.

    You do not need to take me for a fool, I am well aware of the the difference between Hollows and DWB, I put the link on a separate lines thinking you would understand they were separate references.

    The point still remains. You cannot, will not or are unable to produce any evidence to suggest your work will be better for my bottom line than any one else’s work, so there for it’s best to just attack me.

    #1118362
    Zava Design
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    NathanB, post: 133123 wrote:
    The point still remains. You cannot, will not or are unable to produce any evidence to suggest your work will be better for my bottom line than any one else’s work, so there for it’s best to just attack me.
    You really just want to argue rather than learn anything, that’s apparent.

    Let’s look at just some of the issues I’ve come across with regards to badly built sites just recently:
    – badly coded front end, resulting in slow loading speeds, inconsistent display across different browsers, bad display on mobile devices, bad SEO performance
    – badly coded or set up admin, resulting in content being entered not dislaying well, or breaking the site since php/html may have not been filtered from being entered, time consuming for client due to confusing admin set up.

    That’s just the main code base… I could spend even longer on the site architecture, fonts being used, how images are being delivered from the server, visual hierarchy and how that effects comprehension and user actions and responses, content markup… I could probably name a dozen more elements, all of which I could deconstruct any site with, and most of which I could provide real world examples of how it can impact the real world effectiveness of your site.

    But you’re not paying me, so that’s plenty of free consultancy from me. :)

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