Home Forums Marketing mastery Creating a logo….

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  • #1118182
    NathanB
    Member
    • Total posts: 775
    LuckyDip, post: 132835 wrote:
    If you’re lucky, you might get a free logo.

    I’m more of just go and get it done kind of guy (especially because of the tools I have access to) than a wait a see if I get picked kind of guy :)

    That being said, I think what you do is pretty cool and it is very similar to how my entrepreneurial career got started. I started by helping people out (with advice, design work etc for free) just because I loved doing it an being apart of fun projects. It’s now pretty much my day job.

    #1118183
    bridiej
    Member
    • Total posts: 1,097
    NathanB, post: 132809 wrote:
    Although I doubt you will find anyone willing to work for the budget range I advised.

    I should certainly hope not. Years of training and experience is worth far more than $20. But surely the point of the Flying Solo community is to support one another, rather than going for cheap off-shore alternatives?

    FWIW – yes, I use abbreviations too :) – my logo was designed by a Flying Solo member and it didn’t cost the earth, but it’s certainly 1,000% better than anything I’ve seen come out of Odesk (and I do get to see them via certain other forums where people ask “what do you think of this logo?” and quite honestly, 9 times out of 10, they’re pants).

    #1118184
    NathanB
    Member
    • Total posts: 775
    bridiej, post: 132861 wrote:
    I should certainly hope not. Years of training and experience is worth far more than $20. But surely the point of the Flying Solo community is to support one another, rather than going for cheap off-shore alternatives?

    FWIW – yes, I use abbreviations too :) – my logo was designed by a Flying Solo member and it didn’t cost the earth, but it’s certainly 1,000% better than anything I’ve seen come out of Odesk (and I do get to see them via certain other forums where people ask “what do you think of this logo?” and quite honestly, 9 times out of 10, they’re pants).

    Do get me wrong, I do agree with you that years or training plus even more years of refining said training in the real world should definitely be worth more than $20. What I am trying to express is that there is a legion a very talented designers around the world thoroughly grooming their skills specifically to penetrate the western market where they have a massive price point advantage.

    I think the perception/stereotype that overseas workers have poorer skills is quite misguided and in fact the poorer work quality stems from only 2 real problems that exist in terms of outsourcing internationally.

    1. Language and communication

    2. Regulation and recourse.

    These problems will be around for a little while so I would imagine there isn’t a great need for the Australian creatives community to panic just yet how ever as these problems slowly disappear, the whole creative/digital industry will need to adjust accordingly.

    I humbly suggest if I showed you several logos to view you would not be able to pick which ones were made local or made overseas.

    If you would like to try it could be fun :)

    #1118185
    LuckyDip
    Member
    • Total posts: 50
    NathanB, post: 132838 wrote:
    That being said, I think what you do is pretty cool and it is very similar to how my entrepreneurial career got started. I started by helping people out (with advice, design work etc for free) just because I loved doing it an being apart of fun projects. It’s now pretty much my day job.

    Thanks Nathan – at the moment, Lucky Dip Design exists just for fun.

    Actually, I watched this video the other day and it pretty much sums up why I enjoy working on Lucky Dip Design in my spare time.

    #1118186
    Z4CHARI
    Member
    • Total posts: 39

    Did somebody say Logo?

    I’d be happy to lend you a hand.
    Creating a logo, you want to have it look good, but also MAINLY be EFFECTIVE.
    It’s what people will be remembering your business or brand by.

    You could perhaps swing me a message, I could have a little chat with you and we could both brainstorm some ideas. So that you have a closer grip and hold on what you’d like.

    #1118187
    BrettM33
    Member
    • Total posts: 1,372
    NathanB, post: 132741 wrote:
    Jump on ODesk.com and post a job for your logo and for a mere 20-30 dollars you find a quality designer more than happy to produce something similar to the image you like.

    Why? So someone from India or something can type up some text and then place it next to some other random graphic that they don’t even have the copyright to in the first place!?

    Yeah……. real good idea there!

    It really bothers me when people say to go use these sites and get yourself a logo for $20; I mean really – is your logo that unimportant to you that you would only spend that much on it and risk your identity on some random offshore person doing you up a logo that represents what you want?

    If you’re making a hobby site, then sure, maybe these sites may fit your purpose, but for a real business – hell no!

    Additionally and a big one…….

    LOGO DESIGN IS NOT JUST ABOUT MAKING YOUR LOGO LOOK PRETTY!!!

    The majority of the time spent on creating a logo for someone is spent on research, planning and the thought process, do you get that when you use these sites!? The answer 99% of the time is NO!

    At the end of the day you will get people that don’t really care about what their logo represents or where it came from and want to get it done as cheaply as possible and they will flock to these sites and then you will get other people who appreciate a logo is more than just design and thus will hire an experienced professional to do it.

    #1118188
    NathanB
    Member
    • Total posts: 775

    Passionate Post, I like (although some how it felt like you were shouting at me :P).

    CondorCreative, post: 132877 wrote:
    Why? So someone from India or something can type up some text and then place it next to some other random graphic that they don’t even have the copyright to in the first place!?

    Yeah……. real good idea there!

    You are correct. If you post a random, ambiguous job with a poor brief and then hire the first contractor that pings in and say “yep, i’ll do that for $20… you are correct, you’d probably end up with some text based rubbish logo.

    CondorCreative, post: 132877 wrote:
    It really bothers me when people say to go use these sites and get yourself a logo for $20; I mean really – is your logo that unimportant to you that you would only spend that much on it and risk your identity on some random offshore person doing you up a logo that represents what you want?

    Of course my logo’s are important to me (and I would imagine to anyone else), how ever if I or a client have small budget and I not the hundreds, some time thousands of dollars required to chase “perfection” than maybe a something that is just “ready to go to market” will be acceptable.

    Even with the above scenario, it’s still very easy to produce high quality work via out sourcing. I understand your denial of this as your businesses value may rely on that denial.

    CondorCreative, post: 132877 wrote:
    LOGO DESIGN IS NOT JUST ABOUT MAKING YOUR LOGO LOOK PRETTY!!!

    The majority of the time spent on creating a logo for someone is spent on research, planning and the thought process, do you get that when you use these sites!? The answer 99% of the time is NO!

    At the end of the day you will get people that don’t really care about what their logo represents or where it came from and want to get it done as cheaply as possible and they will flock to these sites and then you will get other people who appreciate a logo is more than just design and thus will hire an experienced professional to do it.

    What makes you think there people in other countries don’t equal your talent or desire to produce quality work? What makes you so sure these people are not in fact working even harder than you, living harder lives than you? Are they less educated, are they all just criminals trying to steal from you or is it’ something else?

    Sure there always going to people about there that do crap work, but that is not limited to the international contractors. It happens here too.

    One of the contractors I happen to use proudly wears his 5/5 start rating from over 75 completed jobs like a badge of honour and offers UNLIMITED revisions on any set fee design work until the the client is 100% satisfied.

    Do you do that? If not, why not? or are you more concerned about your bottom line than actually delivering high quality work that satisfies even the toughest clients flippant mind?

    Perhaps as an Australian, you are just entitled to better clients, more money and easier life?

    #1118189
    NathanB
    Member
    • Total posts: 775
    CondorCreative, post: 132877 wrote:
    LOGO DESIGN IS NOT JUST ABOUT MAKING YOUR LOGO LOOK PRETTY!!!

    I think Matt Keath (join in?) summed up a really good point worth illustrating in this thread (the strategic alliance thread) and that is, as a local service provider you have the opportunity to offer and charge for a more extensive service based on holistic problem solving to justify your pricing. This is you only real advantage over outsourcing.

    If you said your $299 (I believe I remember that from a recent signature you had). logo package is going to be move valuable to me than a $20 Odesk logo. You need to demonstrate this in a measurable way with evidence and If you cannot, then you are just blowing hot air at me.

    Step back at look at my business as whole, as the sum of all it’s part and then tell me how me spending $299 on you delivering me a logo is going to fit into that arrangement and then deliver me a greater profit than if I had have used someone else for the job.

    If you can’t demonstrate this, then as you said, all I would receive from you is something pretty, charged me 15 times the price I could have gotten else where.

    #1118190
    BrettM33
    Member
    • Total posts: 1,372
    Quote:
    You are correct. If you post a random, ambiguous job with a poor brief and then hire the first contractor that pings in and say “yep, i’ll do that for $20… you are correct, you’d probably end up with some text based rubbish logo.

    You would still get it no matter what you posted TBH, not saying everyone does it, but cheap logos are rife with this characteristic.

    Quote:
    Of course my logo’s are important to me (and I would imagine to anyone else), how ever if I or a client have small budget and I not the hundreds, some time thousands of dollars required to chase “perfection” than maybe a something that is just “ready to go to market” will be acceptable.

    Even with the above scenario, it’s still very easy to produce high quality work via out sourcing. I understand your denial of this as your businesses value may rely on that denial.

    I know not everyones budget can afford to get a professional logo, but then perhaps they are looking at it wrong. If they have to budget to lease a store front, they should budget for a logo too – most people just don’t know how much work actually goes into creating a logo and hence you get people that try DYI or look for $20 logos.

    Additionally, I never said it’s impossible to get good, well thought out logos from these types of places, however it’s like a needle in a haystack.

    Quote:
    What makes you think there people in other countries don’t equal your talent or desire to produce quality work? What makes you so sure these people are not in fact working even harder than you, living harder lives than you? Are they less educated, are they all just criminals trying to steal from you or is it’ something else?

    Sure there always going to people about there that do crap work, but that is not limited to the international contractors. It happens here too.

    Again, not impossible to get quality work from these places and yes, you can still get low quality work here too; my main beef is not with their location (although certain places like India have a bad reputation) but what usually comes out of freelance sites such as this. If you go seek out a pro designer via other methods then I’m sure the quality of work would be just as good as you would get here.

    Quote:
    One of the contractors I happen to use proudly wears his 5/5 start rating from over 75 completed jobs like a badge of honour and offers UNLIMITED revisions on any set fee design work until the the client is 100% satisfied.

    Do you do that? If not, why not? or are you more concerned about your bottom line than actually delivering high quality work that satisfies even the toughest clients flippant mind?

    We more or less offer unlimited revisions, however do have a “soft limit” to prevent against crazy clients that want a billion revisions, after that, changes are done hourly.

    Quote:
    If you said your $299 (I believe I remember that from a recent signature you had). logo package is going to be move valuable to me than a $20 Odesk logo. You need to demonstrate this in a measurable way with evidence and If you cannot, then you are just blowing hot air at me.

    Step back at look at my business as whole, as the sum of all it’s part and then tell me how me spending $299 on you delivering me a logo is going to fit into that arrangement and then deliver me a greater profit than if I had have used someone else for the job.

    If you can’t demonstrate this, then as you said, all I would receive from you is something pretty, charged me 15 times the price I could have gotten else where.

    As I’ve said many times on this forum, I am not the designer myself (I am the coder) and I sub-contract my design and logo work to other local desginers (both of whom are members of this forum) so I am going to leave your questions to a real designer to answer as they likely could answer it a whole lot better than me; however as I have already pointed out most of the time is spent researching your business which is done after having you fill in a detailed form before we do any actual work on the logo and putting a lot of thought into the whole process.

    I will also say we obviously will have the copyright to use whatever is used in the logo, logo will work in black and white, will be able to be used across all media types such as web, print, signage etc etc, still be able to be made out at small sizes and also be created in vector format.

    As for the $299, that was just a special and my usual price is $549. :)

    #1118191
    Zava Design
    Participant
    • Total posts: 1,461
    NathanB, post: 132880 wrote:
    What makes you think there people in other countries don’t equal your talent or desire to produce quality work? What makes you so sure these people are not in fact working even harder than you, living harder lives than you? Are they less educated, are they all just criminals trying to steal from you or is it’ something else?
    I don’t think most informed folk believe that.

    However, even in the lowest cost country, a $20 logo is going to get you a pretty picture and not much else. It’s not going to get you:
    – research & analysis into your target market
    – research & analysis into your competitors, their branding, what’s working, what’s not working for them
    – range of initial concepts based on that research

    And if you truly think you’re going to get a logo that may never be used in some form somewhere else for that budget you’re deluding yourself.

    Sure, some people don’t need more than a pretty picture, so it may all work out just fine. But don’t delude yourself into what you’re getting, be aware exactly what you’re getting, and then decide whether that’s fine for your business or if your business is worth a little more in its branding. A little like deciding at what point is your business worth more than a cookie cutter template that may be used by dozens of other companies.

    There’s no right or wrong answer applicable to every individual business.



    And this:

    I will also say we obviously will have the copyright to use whatever is used in the logo, logo will work in black and white, will be able to be used across all media types such as web, print, signage etc etc, still be able to be made out at small sizes and also be created in vector format.

    #1118192
    Zava Design
    Participant
    • Total posts: 1,461

    One of the contractors I happen to use proudly wears his 5/5 start rating from over 75 completed jobs like a badge of honour and offers UNLIMITED revisions on any set fee design work until the the client is 100% satisfied.

    Do you do that? If not, why not? or are you more concerned about your bottom line than actually delivering high quality work that satisfies even the toughest clients flippant mind?

    Ahh, this is always a funny one. :)

    Do you not consider why they need to offer unlimited revisions on their work??

    And surely I would have thought you engage a “professional” for them to have the expertise to solve your problem, not for them to produce random graphics until they come up with one you “like”? Especially considering that the logo is not for you at all, but for your target audience, who you may or may not have an indepth knowledge of. A good logo designer will gather that knowledge before creating a logo.

    Can you imagine the same with an electrician, and the only outcome that you understand is that your light comes on again. However due to their lack of knowledge and education the way they have actually wired up the house leaves it at high risk of short circuiting and starting a fire.

    Fortunately no one has ever died from a badly done logo. Though I do recall one logo done “on the cheap” that had a striking resemblance to a specific fetish sexual practice. Enough said about that on a business forum. :)

    #1118193
    TheGoldenGoose
    Member
    • Total posts: 860

    There is no way I feel threatened by a company that charges $20 or even $99 for a “logo design.”

    If you want to go down that track, it’s completely up to you!

    The solutions I offer are long term, forward thinking, original and focused on the outlook of the brand and helping you as a client understand a) who you are b) what you stand for c) how you are being perceived d) how you want to be perceived.

    It’s a completely different ball game.

    #1118194
    Stuart B
    Member
    • Total posts: 1,073

    I think the main difficulty is that people don’t understand the difference, or they don’t understand why it’s valuable.

    #1118195
    Zava Design
    Participant
    • Total posts: 1,461
    TheGoldenGoose, post: 132905 wrote:
    There is no way I feel threatened by a company that charges $20 or even $99 for a “logo design.”
    100% agree. Exactly the same way I feel about web design/development. There will always be plenty of work for good people. The others will go down the price wars path (to doom), or move onto other careers in areas they’re hopefully better at.
    #1118196
    Past-Member
    Member
    • Total posts: 1,815

    Costs have definitely changed over the years. I have been in this industry for 38 years and in former advertising days the cost of developing a logo started at $5500 which included weeks of research, meetings, bouncing ideas of each other, development and execution.

    Like Golden Goose and Zava Design, I take the time to research and develop a logo that is unique and will be part of an overall branding concept. I work with a client until they are happy with the design. I do not compete on price. The design process is important to me and that takes time to get the best outcome. Often I end up redesigning or redrawing logos that were never done as vectors in the first place for those who want to move a step up and improve or makeover their branding.

    We are really discussing entirely different markets.
    .

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