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  • #1118212
    NathanB
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    CondorCreative, post: 133053 wrote:
    I didn’t say that, I have said many times your chances at these places of finding someone like that is very slim and in the $20 range, practically 0%..

    Why? $20 is a lot to some people.

    CondorCreative, post: 133053 wrote:
    Tell me, of all the times you have used these places, has any of them tried to gain a detailed understanding of the business, your goals, what you are trying to portray to your customers and then done the necessary research required?

    Honestly, only 1/4 of the contractors I use opened up negotiations a job I had posted with a questionnaire that I had to fill out and return. That being said, 4/4 of the contractors I use understand the job description %100 when before I select them for the work – On the off chance they still don’t get it quite right, which does happen, they revise until I am satisfied.

    CondorCreative, post: 133053 wrote:
    You may or may not tell them this ahead of time, but without giving them a chance to ask these details themselves you don’t know if they are going to utilise any of it or not.

    That can be said about you and your service also which is why I referred to some of your processors potential being fluff. All of that additional work only matters if you can demonstrate why it matters.

    #1118213
    Zava Design
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    NathanB, post: 133044 wrote:
    I’d much rather continue the discussion if you were willing.

    I’m as a set in my was as the evidence at hand. I am aware I have made some bold claim and I am happy to be shown the light when/if I am wrong. So far rather than demonstrating anything you are asserting you are just attacking the thing I am asserting – You may as well be a Tony Abbot :)

    All I have asked from you is to show me that you can demonstrate a bottom line or real world difference with all the additional processes you have that you have claimed are unavailable when out sourcing (when really they are).

    You and other posters in the thread talk about the Odesk horror stories like they are the standard of the resource and then claim the the contractors simply don’t care about the clients and on top of this will almost always you use illegal obtained copyrighted stock rather than just do the work them selves. It’s the equivalent of me running around all claiming all Aussie agencies are over priced and out to rip you off because their all hipsters who want to sit around the office drinking fancy brand coffee. (which is not the case).

    I am saying the future yields a new and tough breed of competition which is currently heavily focussed on price point and your answer to this is “yeh, their crap… trust me.”
    Wow, you make a whole heap of generalisations and false accusations throughout this and other posts.

    No one’s talked about Odesk “horror stories”. No ones’s said that nobody on Odesk is professional or has talent. And nobody has said many other things you seem to want to continually write.

    Once you stop exaggerating what folk are writing perhaps we could return to a conversation based on what people are actually saying. :rolleyes:

    #1118214
    NathanB
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    So when people say a $20 logo will be crap, that’s just a fact? becuase I disagree. I offered to play a fun game earlier where posters have to try and guess the Odesk/Pro logs – We still can :)

    When people say if a logo is only $20, the person making it has no interest designing you something of good original quality, that is a fact? $20 to one person could have the same value as a $1000 dollars to you. Not to mention a job well done can lead to future earnings.

    When people say that… all the outsourcing work I have seen has been of poor quality as a foundation argument, that doesn’t extend to suggest the work produced such methods will also be as such?

    I could have gone through this thread and the Buy Australian thread and qouted every body but I am far too lazy.

    Almost everyone here in this thread debating with have all stood up and said the same message – that message being – You get what you pay for – yet no one has been able or willing to elaborate in a manner that can demonstrate this (above and beyond telling me they will do some research and guarantee an original concept which anyone can do).

    I understand very well the power of a high quality logo and brand identity. The single point I am trying to argue is there are too many people that claim they deliver more than what they really do and it’s all just fluff.

    As I mentioned early, if a designer me that their design work would yield 500% ROI and was able to demonstrate how… i’ll buy every time. If you can’t – then your in the same category as the Odesk contractor, just and 15 times the price, no matter what additional fluff is added in to sales pitch.

    #1118215
    BrettM33
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    Quote:
    Why? $20 is a lot to some people.

    Ughh….. if you think you’re going to get yourself a proper logo for $20, then good luck to you! flyingpig.gif

    Quote:
    That can be said about you and your service also which is why I referred to some of your processors potential being fluff. All of that additional work only matters if you can demonstrate why it matters.

    Ummmmm no it can’t, because as I have stated I gather all this info before doing a thing with the logo itself. Now you’re starting to generally accuse designers that gather this info as just doing it to “look good” and to add some “fluff” but implying that they don’t even use it!?

    Quote:
    no matter what additional fluff is added in to sales pitch.

    You can keep calling it fluff all you want, but I’d say most designers (again, I am not one) take pride in delivering the best logo they can and that is why they do all this extra “fluff” (or not do as you imply).

    Quote:
    So when people say a $20 logo will be crap, that’s just a fact? becuase I disagree. I offered to play a fun game earlier where posters have to try and guess the Odesk/Pro logs – We still can

    We wouldn’t be able to do that as because as I said, creating a good logo is not about the one that looks the prettiest, it’s about what is right for the business itself.

    #1118216
    NathanB
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    CondorCreative, post: 133070 wrote:
    Ughh….. if you think you’re going to get yourself a proper logo for $20, then good luck to you! flyingpig.gif

    Ummmmm no it can’t, because as I have stated I gather all this info before doing a thing with the logo itself. Now you’re starting to generally accuse designers that gather this info as just doing it to “look good” and to add some “fluff” but implying that they don’t even use it!?

    I’m not accusing you or any particular designers of anything. I am saying the possibility of getting crap works exist no matter what your budget is or where you are and who you hire. If you are going to charge more and claim more things like “we’ll research etc” the client needs to know why and what a impact that difference brings.

    As I had said, if you can demonstrate that your designs will increase my profit, brand loyalty, time spent of site etc… anything really… in a measurable way. If not… we’ll what’s it all for?

    CondorCreative, post: 133070 wrote:
    You can keep calling it fluff all you want, but I’d say most designers (again, I am not one) take pride in delivering the best logo they can and that is why they do all this extra “fluff” (or not do as you imply).

    It’s not meant to be offensive. Fluff is just a fun word I use to describe anything that could be added into a pitch/product as a value-add but doesn’t really do anything, like when people say, I add a personal touch – because the other guy is soulless robot. :P

    It’s only fluff until it’s real though, I’d pay for “a personal touch” if the guy designing my logo was famous award winning for example…

    CondorCreative, post: 133070 wrote:
    We wouldn’t be able to do that as because as I said, creating a good logo is not about the one that looks the prettiest, it’s about what is right for the business itself.

    This is the part we are stuck on – we seem to actually agree on everything else despite what appear to be 5 pages of arguing… :)

    The only thing I am asking is….

    How can it be demonstrated what is right for business and how will your work (or any designers for that matter) be measured? As I mentioned about the BP 3.4 M logo… there would have been some damn huge outcomes and deliverables required on that project…

    what would I get from $549 package?

    As I understand it so far.

    1. Guaranteed originality – def a good thing.
    2. High quality communication – def a good thing.
    3. You taking a interest in my needs – also a good thing.
    4. You producing a quality logo that will…. (i’ll let you finish this bit)…

    is there anything else? Now all of the above are great but how will that make my business better, or bring me more revenue, or peak more interest from consumers or land more sales… The only thing you are really selling with the first three options IMHO is peace of mind. (which is a great selling tool) but can you give me more?

    #1118218
    Zava Design
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    NathanB, post: 133071 wrote:
    As I understand it so far.

    1. Guaranteed originality – def a good thing.
    2. High quality communication – def a good thing.
    3. You taking a interest in my needs – also a good thing.
    4. You producing a quality logo that will…. (i’ll let you finish this bit)…
    Wow, where do I start?

    Do you have any knowledge of colour theory, and how it impacts on people’s moods, thoughts and actions?

    And how like colour, our mind is also pre-disposed to react on some level to certain shapes?

    Then there’s typefaces, which also convey personality, plus one of the most common issues with less experienced designers is bad leading. Which may mean nothing to a layman, and may often not even be spotted by the average eprson, but can impact on legibility, along with the overall unspoken professionalism conveyed by the logo.

    That’s three elements. If I truly wanted to spend the time deconstructing a logo there are probably a dozen other aspects I could go into. But the information is out there if you were truly interested, and there is enough research and case studies to illustrate in quite some detail the benefits that come from a well designed and executed logo. If you’re after knowledge rather than an argument then spend the time researching, it’s not that hard to find.

    #1118219
    BrettM33
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    Quote:
    what would I get from $549 package?

    As I understand it so far.

    1. Guaranteed originality – def a good thing.
    2. High quality communication – def a good thing.
    3. You taking a interest in my needs – also a good thing.
    4. You producing a quality logo that will…. (i’ll let you finish this bit)…

    Zava already gave you some more to chew on and is stuff that most people woudln’t even consider, but you seem to have also missed out other stuff I mentioned previously such as working in black and white, tiny sizes, across all media types, vector format etc…

    Oh one last thing….. with these sites, do you ever sign a contract so as to pass over copyright of the logo to yourself and then onto the respective client!? Not to mention cover you against a lot of things like copyright infringement if said designer used something they weren’t allowed to in the design – and this opens up a whole legal mindfield when dealing with people from other countries. My guess is you are not doing this or if so, very rarely.

    #1118220
    NathanB
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    CondorCreative, post: 133077 wrote:
    Zava already gave you some more to chew on and is stuff that most people woudln’t even consider, but you seem to have also missed out other stuff I mentioned previously such as working in black and white, tiny sizes, across all media types, vector format etc…

    You can get all of the above.

    CondorCreative, post: 133077 wrote:
    Oh one last thing….. with these sites, do you ever sign a contract so as to pass over copyright of the logo to yourself and then onto the respective client!? Not to mention cover you against a lot of things like copyright infringement if said designer used something they weren’t allowed to in the design – and this opens up a whole legal mindfield when dealing with people from other countries. My guess is you are not doing this or if so, very rarely.

    Yes. – Odesk itself managers this (although I have said regulation is still an issue) but one that will only reside as things progress.

    #1118221
    Zava Design
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    NathanB, post: 133107 wrote:
    You can get all of the above.
    For $20, no you don’t.

    You’re not a designer are you Nathan?

    #1118222
    Johny
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    Do you have any knowledge of colour theory, and how it impacts on people’s moods, thoughts and actions?

    Just imagine how much better that logo would be in printed form with an added scent to further enhance the mood.

    Just thought I would add that.

    Back to the biffo.

    #1118223
    NathanB
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    Zava Design, post: 133114 wrote:
    For $20, no you don’t.

    You’re not a designer are you Nathan?

    I didn’t say all that for $20. But you can still find some one with an hourly rate significantly lower than what’s available here and receive a similar standard of talent if you put the time and effort in.

    Regarding whether I am a designer…

    I completed a one of the first available (government subsidised) Multi-media programs in Melbourne 10 years ago now but I have not worked in design for a while. I Was in entertainment for a while before moving into Marketing.

    What I will say to pre-empt any assessment you may make of me is that IMHO a Designer is person that makes shiny things but does not necessarily have the ability to wield them in a manner that can demonstrate at measurable difference. Despite all the lecturing I have received on how important a good logo is (to which I already agree with) no one in this thread has been able or willing to demonstrate how THEY use their skills, knowledge or understanding of the subject in manner to present such a impact. The best I have received so far is a link to article that tells me why a good logo can be important. The second best response was Condor handling the question back to you Zava :)

    In a nutshell, I considerer myself a first and foremost, a Marketeer and my job is to deliver a dollar value, which is why I am stuck on the $ value question with you guys. If I were to bring one of my clients jobs to you, it would need a decent answer. Secondly I consider myself a problem solver, thirdly I consider myself a consultant for design/development work.

    As you have stated and I have agreed, there will ALWAYS be a market for quality designers. My definition of qualify designer just seems to be different than yours perhaps. A quality designer is just some one that knows “design” well or goes and above and beyond for the client. A quality designer is someone that knows how to use their skills to boost my bottom line (or achieve any other set target in it’s place).

    #1118224
    Zava Design
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    NathanB, post: 133116 wrote:
    What I will say to pre-empt any assessment you may make of me is that IMHO a Designer is person that makes shiny things but does not necessarily have the ability to wield them in a manner that can demonstrate at measurable difference.
    We have different definitions of what a professional designer is, that’s apparent.

    Quote:
    A quality designer is someone that knows how to use their skills to boost my bottom line (or achieve any other set target in it’s place).
    And yet then you come out with something more in line with what a professional designer actually is.

    You want to talk “bottom line”? I could almost guarantee that a good designer creating an effective website would improve the effectiveness of your Click and Save site. And that’s exactly the kind of service I offer my clients, creating high quality, effective websites for them. THAT is what a designer is, not someone making “shiny things”.

    Whereas a $20 logo is just a shiny thing.

    #1118225
    NathanB
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    Zava Design, post: 133118 wrote:
    We have different definitions of what a professional designer is, that’s apparent.

    And yet then you come out with something more in line with what a professional designer actually is.

    You want to talk “bottom line”? I could almost guarantee that a good designer creating an effective website would improve the effectiveness of your Click and Save site. And that’s exactly the kind of service I offer my clients, creating high quality, effective websites for them. THAT is what a designer is, not someone making “shiny things”.

    Whereas a $20 logo is just a shiny thing.

    1. My website was was made my a good local designer. Feel free continue taking pot shots as I have quite thick skin :)

    2. Then guarantee it, not “almost guarantee” it. What’s an “almost gaurentee” is that where you take my money and then claim success if it works but deny failure if is doesn’t? I will pay you what ever you charge as long as you make me more. Deal? – Obviously you have to be able to demonstrate what you do in a way that can be measured.

    3. I have never said you don’t offer a good service. What I have said how ever is there are MANY Aussie designers claiming to do what you do (the full service package with a guaranteed bottom line impact) when in reality all they actually do is deliver the same output as what I can get on Odesk just at 15 times the price. This is why a recommend Odesk as a solution to people who have small budgets.

    If you have a big budget and can afford a proven business with a good rep and great track record. Go with that every time. If you have a small budget, why should I trust you or condor if you are not willing to offer me insights as to how you can demonstrate your value?

    #1118226
    Zava Design
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    NathanB, post: 133120 wrote:
    1. My website was was made my a good local designer. Feel free continue taking pot shots as I have quite thick skin :)
    Pot shot? It could simply be improved a great deal in some very obvious and apparent ways.

    why should I trust you or condor if you are not willing to offer me insights as to how you can demonstrate your value?

    I have no real interest in offering further insights to you, you’re not my target market.

    Those that are, and those that I work with, I quite happily spend considerable time assessing their site, their business objectives and what they need from their site, and then discuss with them various ideas and options. And then together we make a decision on the best way to move forward.

    And since 90% of my business is repeat or referrals I’m presuming that they get something tangible out of this process. If not then I guess they’re all fools. :)

    #1118227
    NathanB
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    Zava Design, post: 133122 wrote:
    Pot shot? It could simply be improved a great deal in some very obvious and apparent ways.

    I have no real interest in offering further insights to you, you’re not my target market.

    Those that are, and those that I work with, I quite happily spend considerable time assessing their site, their business objectives and what they need from their site, and then discuss with them various ideas and options. And then together we make a decision on the best way to move forward.

    And since 90% of my business is repeat or referrals I’m presuming that they get something tangible out of this process. If not then I guess they’re all fools. :)

    Superb.

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