Home – New Forums Tech talk EMD’s getting smoked – latest algo update

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  • #1119420
    NickMorris
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    Zava Design,

    I certainly agree there’s no place for ad hominems in a discussion. However, while I acknowledge my tone and general language were probably a bit dismissive, aggressive, even patronising, I don’t think I made any personal attacks… except perhaps my use of the word “wallow.” Please accept my apology for any offense caused, I do tend to get a bit hot under the collar sometimes, its something I’m working on.

    Back to the discussion…

    Zava Design, post: 134372 wrote:
    Data set was across about 20 different keyword groups, roughly about 12-20 keywords/phrases per group.

    And all aspects were the same apart from EMD v non EMD.

    You found domains that had equal numbers of backlinks, from the same sources, identical content, identical ages etc.?

    I’m not a statistician but those numbers seem far to small to be statistically significant. We’re talking about trillions of searches across billions of web pages after all.

    Zava Design, post: 134372 wrote:
    Wow, that’s a big call from a mere few forum posts. You really have no clue how harsh I may judge myself. I’d avoid making judgements on someone with minimal information.

    Agreed. My bad. Retracted.

    Zava Design, post: 134372 wrote:
    I don’t claim it as revolutionary, just as pretty in depth. So far you’ve provided none of your own. Should we expect to see any soon??

    Well I wasn’t actually making a claim, only refuting your claim but I have offered evidence, more on that below.

    Zava Design, post: 134372 wrote:
    Meanwhile, I’ll wait patiently for any evidence from you that EMDs carry any weight. Anything will do, so we can actually stick to discussion on the subject at hand, rather than resorting to personal insults.

    Patience…

    Zava Design, post: 134372 wrote:
    Wow, and this probably reveals a lot about you. Seems in your eyes I’m not good enough or have worthy enough experience to have maybe done some research that could actually be valid. Seems since I don’t have an SEO blog, or am selling SEO expertise, or whatever else you think would make my viewpoint valid, that it should all just be dismissed.

    Seems my 15 years working as a professional in the web/digital industry, majority of that time working with clients of the calibre of the Commonwealth Bank, HSBC, Arnott’s, Toyota Australia, Panasonic et al… that gives me no authority in the matter at all, is that what you’re saying? I’m certainly not saying that gives me more authority than SEOmoz, or even you for that matter, but it seems you’re saying I have no authority on the matter. Is that correct

    No, that’s not correct. I’m saying its extremely difficult to use experience – anyone’s experience, not just yours – as evidence of anything! Anyway, my understanding was that you were putting forth your research as your evidence, not your experience, is that correct?

    I think we should avoid using experience as evidence if at all possible. I acknowledge however, that its difficult to use data in the case of SEO because its very difficult to isolate variables as discussed above.

    Have you noticed that not one other person in this thread – people with plenty of experience – has agreed with you? If you value experience, doesn’t that ring some alarm bells?

    Zava Design, post: 134372 wrote:
    SEOmoz has a vested interest in certain viewpoints. I actually do value their views in many areas, I am of the opinion that perhaps in the area of EMDs they may be a little outdated. I didn’t hold that opinion at first, took all that they said as gospel. But I proved myself wrong in this particular area. As I seek to do often.

    I’m not sure what SEOmoz would gain from misrepresenting the effect of EMDs?

    I’m not sure if you actually went and looked at the SEOmoz study that I posted but its not just some blog post or anything that represents the “opinion” of the company. This is a semi annual study involving correlation data and a survey of hundreds of industry professionals.

    Yeh I know, ‘survey of industry professionals’ is obviously somewhat experience based but I think doing it in aggregate is probably the best we can do to gain insight from experience.

    As far as I know this is the most comprehensive study of ranking factors, yet you seem to dismiss it easily. Care to explain why?

    #1119421
    Cesar
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    Question Everyone?

    Since the inception of Google, why has Google been the number 1 SE? Easy, because since then it has provided the most relevant results. Speak to the general public and you will notice they haven’t noticed over all these years that Google’s results have withered in any way or form. The only one’s who seem to think so, are the one’s with vested interests within the Internet Marketing Industry.

    Why do people keep bringing up these subjects after so many years of the same discussions? It’s getting boring don’t you think. Time to move-on.

    #1119422
    seocourse
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    Zava Design, post: 134374 wrote:
    Or maybe if Nick’s too lazy too, or just wants to continue with personal insults and put downs rather than sticking to debating the actual subject, we can all share in a little research to see how much EMDs appear to matter?

    So everyone just search for a random keyword or phrase via Google, and confirm whether or not an EMD appears on the first page? Hardly scientific, but not a bad starting point on the actual subject matter.

    A few from me:

    how to cure acne – no EMD first page
    https://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&q=how+to+cure+acne&btnG=Google+Search

    world’s best beaches – no EMD first page
    https://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&q=world’s+best+beaches&btnG=Google+Search

    learn seo – no EMD first page
    https://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&q=learn+seo&btnG=Google+Search

    are you aware you are looking at results AFTER the update?

    but anyway… if u want proof…

    Proof? mmm let see.

    SEO professional
    SEOprofessional.com.au 1st page – I haven’t touched that site in mmmm 2 years?

    SEO course
    I took the site down during my bizzbuzz deal… no content at all.. 1st page still
    SEOcourse.com.au (in fact there is one page only)

    SEOpackages.com.au
    I’m re doing the content… crappy content so far…1st page still…. for SEO packages.

    Different topics

    Melbourne Plumber – EMD with low links in first page
    Brisbane Plumber – EMD with less content than others and authority in first page
    Plumbing perth – EMD with crappy links same deal 1st position

    I can go all day…

    #1119423
    seocourse
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    Anyway Zava, thanks for the discussion… is always nice to start the week with a new virtual polemic about the SEO world.
    I agree with Cesar and Nick… time to move on…

    ;)

    #1119424
    Aidan
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    Hi Cesar,

    Not sure I follow – who in the industry would have a vested interest in saying that Google was getting poor at delivering search results (apart from other search engines)?

    As an internet marketer myself, I would say G is doing a great job all things said. Sure it has its stuffups from time to time (which I whinge at as much as anyone) but on the whole it does deliver good results, paid and organic, at least as good as the competition.

    Hi Gab,

    I’m also seeing lots of EMD’s still ranking, many of which have no other real claim to the space they are in, it will be interesting to see how many are still there in another couple of weeks.

    #1119425
    Tessa Hartnett
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    craiglongmuir.com, post: 134285 wrote:
    Mine are all gone!!
    Even my own web design site with no emd is gone…. Bad news!

    You are not alone 😮

    #1119426
    Tessa Hartnett
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    One of my sites disappeared after that update, but not for the EMD (I actually improved here spot 10 to spot 1!!!). It disappeared from page 1 for about 6 other terms is was ranking for. My traffic went straight to zero, so upset.

    However, this is the game we are in and why I don’t rely on just one retail store for our little empire. I will just keep pluggin’ away and pray it will come back another day.

    #1119427
    Zava Design
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    NickMorris, post: 134421 wrote:
    Please accept my apology for any offense caused, I do tend to get a bit hot under the collar sometimes, its something I’m working on.
    Accepted.

    I’m not a statistician but those numbers seem far to small to be statistically significant. We’re talking about trillions of searches across billions of web pages after all.

    Did you not so research at Uni, or for a company at any time? It is quite possible to have valid research done utilising a smaller sample number than the entire population, incorporating a ratio for room for error. Research companies do it all the time. (Indeed, here’s one I just came across today! ;) )

    And you tell me: If you had conducted similar research, and got the results I got on the number I used, what would you have concluded? What if I’d continued and used 100+ more keywords and come out with the same results?

    You found domains that had equal numbers of backlinks, from the same sources, identical content, identical ages etc.?

    I created the sites, so yes. Not identical content though, Google would penalise that. I created varied content that utilised the same keyword density/structure …etc. I started out doing it to make income from Adsense ads. And then I noticed something, so did further research and testing… and lo and behold, look what I uncovered.

    Have you noticed that not one other person in this thread – people with plenty of experience – has agreed with you? If you value experience, doesn’t that ring some alarm bells?

    And you don’t also think I noticed that the prevailing viewpoint within the SEO world was also against my discovery? So you don’t think I would be hesitant to bring it up if I wasn’t pretty confident?

    But has anyone disputing me in this thread done any indepth research themselves on the subject, or simply accepted the prevailing view and gone with it? As I did at first… but since it involved me investing my own time and money (rather than someone else’s) I pushed myself to go a little further, and question the “prevailing attitude” to see if it was actually correct. And what I found is that maybe it wasn’t.

    SEO professional
    SEOprofessional.com.au 1st page – I haven’t touched that site in mmmm 2 years?

    SEO course
    I took the site down during my bizzbuzz deal… no content at all.. 1st page still
    SEOcourse.com.au (in fact there is one page only)

    … et al

    Actually, a few of them aren’t first page any more. But that’s neither here nor there, even one example is great for discussion.

    Now, for any of those sites, do you have another “matching” site you have put equal time in, equal backlinks, equal type of content, equal keyword density and structure …etc, and can compare each to? That would be the test, and it’s what I did with the sites I created a little over a year ago, watching results over the following months.

    Anyway Zava, thanks for the discussion… is always nice to start the week with a new virtual polemic about the SEO world.

    Anyone with knowledge of SEO knows that the viewpoint that EMDs aren’t quite the easy SEO solution many think is nothing new, and that the debate about their value has existed for a couple of years at least.

    2009: http://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/webmasters/K96omFzXp0w
    “SEOMoz has reported UPTO 10-15 % rises – and, as far as I know, that was never distinguished between the DomainName having the Keyword, or links to the site ending up with KEywords in it.”

    October 2010: http://www.seomoz.org/blog/exact-match-domains-are-far-too-powerful-is-their-time-limited
    “Interestingly, some of the more experienced, ear-to-the-ground SEO types indicated that they’d heard (or believed) that Google would soon be taking action against exact match domains. One person, who wasn’t at the event, but whom I trust a great deal (and will remain anonymous) indicated they thought the next 6 months would bring about this shift.”

    November 2010: http://www.seobook.com/should-you-buy-exact-match-domain-name
    – Google already aware that EMDs are a problem.

    You really think they left it for 2 years to do something about it? Or is it 2 years before they had perfected their algorithm and decided it was time to target aged EMDs? Completely impossible idea? You’re that certain about Google’s algorithm??

    Plenty other similar discussions from a couple of years ago and earlier if you Google with date range.

    And my viewpoint was formed out of one simple situation: I was able to rank a site equally well whether it used an EMD or not. Now if that’s not the situation you found, then that’s cool, but it is what I found was able to be achieved, and hence my viewpoint (and saved $$$).

    #1119428
    Zava Design
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    seocourse, post: 134441 wrote:
    Anyway Zava, thanks for the discussion… is always nice to start the week with a new virtual polemic about the SEO world.
    I agree with Cesar and Nick… time to move on…

    ;)
    The funniest thing about this comment? You’re slamming me for offering a different viewpoint than you and “the norm” with regards to EMDs…

    And yet you offer a different viewpoint than most reputable SEO firms and Google themselves hold about SEO “guarantees”:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpepzonCDIQ

    So it’s fine for you to hold a differing position than “the norm”, but not me? Seems a little hypocritical, no?

    #1119429
    Geronimo
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    It’s been a while since we’ve had a good barny on the forums. What would we do without the SEO experts who add so much life and laughter.:p

    #1119430
    Anonymous
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    And on that note Geronimo, I think this thread has run its course and is in danger of veering outside the guidelines, so we’ll close it here and resume normal transmission.

    Cheers all,
    Jayne

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