How do I know if the SEO company is doing a ‘Ethical’ work?

[John Romaine]

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Kon, all valid questions, most of which I’ve spoken about at length on my own site.

For most business owners SEO could be viewed as a “mysterious art”, which it really isn’t. It is however a specialised area that is unfortunately full of people who dont know what they’re doing, and are simply out to “cash in”.

I’ve been involved in the SEO space since 2003, and in that time I think I’ve met 3, maybe 4 people that really knew what they were doing.

This is the other problem. Anyone can sound like they know what they’re talking about – especially when speaking to business owners over the phone who know nothing about SEO. This is what makes sleazy persuasive sales tactics in this space so effective.

Sales agents are praying on clueless business owners who focus on the wrong things. “We want to be first in Google”. “How many keywords can we rank for?”, “How long to be first page”. These are the very questions that sleazy sales agents want to hear, because it demonstates low level thinking.

Instead, (and this is very important) business owners should be asking questions like – “What type of return on investment could we expect?”, “How could you help us increase our sales, or customer enquiries?”, “How can we improve our conversion rates?”

Shitty SEO agencies wont mention metrics like these because they dont care. They’ll sell you meaningless dribble like “35% of your keywords first page”, or “SEO optimised articles”

In other words, when you’re on the phone, or viewing an SEO agency on the web, the discussion and pitch should be based around this …

How can this business engagement help me increase revenue

Thats it.

Thats the whole point of the exercise.

Not keywords, not rankings, not keyword density, or links or anything.

If you’re not having that discussion, then chances are, you’re out to waste a lot of money.

In answer to your other questions ….

However how would you define how many hours required to run SEO service?

That varies between campaigns. Ive gotten good results in 3 months, other times its taken 18 months. Whats important however is that the person you’re speaking with sets REALISTIC expectations. Most SEO agencies will sell you all sorts of wonderful promises. “We guarantee rankings by next Tuesday”.

Bullshit.

Most campaigns on average take at least 12 months.

Would you set up stages, what would be involved, time frame, expected results etc?

You do setup in stages, this is why SEO is provided as a month to month service. Otherwise you’d be paying for 150-250 hours up front which would be incredibly expensive. As to what’s involved, that varies too, as do time frames as explained above.

Expected results should be discussed before you engage with someone, so that you’re clear about KPI’s and overall objectives.

Most people simply say “We want to be first for this keyword” then throw money at someone, then wonder why nothings happening 8 months later.

Again, your focus should be conversions, sales, customer enquiries and revenue. If someone is paying me $2,000 a month, they should be getting back 5,7,10,15,000 per month.

I would recommend you have a read of this article, here and this one here

[bb1]

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What I am reading here is if an agency charges $75 to $200 an hour they know what they are doing. Isn’t it dangerous to make a decision on quality of work on how much people charge. To answer the very original post $’s has absolutely nothing to do with knowing if your SEO agency is doing ethical work, and I would be super cautious of anyone who comes to you and says because I charge big $’s I must be ethical.

Basically I could open BB1 SEO Rip of services, charge 200 bucks an hour and people will consider I know what I am talking about based on the last few posts. Danger, warning.

[John Romaine]

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Use some common sense Bert.

Reputable companies charge an hourly rate. [Mod Edit To Remove profane language] charge $299 a month.

[Aidan]

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Bert,

your comment could apply to any field. For example I might say the exact same thing about gardening or landscaping:

“I could open BB1 Gardening Rip off services, charge 200 bucks an hour…”

but would it make sense? No, I’d just look an idiot for saying something like that. Nobody but a wealthy fool (about to be poor) is going to judge a service based on what the hourly rate is.

[Aidan]

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John Romaine, post: 246328, member: 39536 wrote:

Use some common sense Bert.

Reputable companies charge an hourly rate. Dickheads charge $299 a month.

Yeah but… no but…

Depends how much work they’re doing for the fee!

[outsourcingrus]

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John Romaine, post: 246325, member: 39536 wrote:

Kon, all valid questions, most of which I’ve spoken about at length on my own site.

For most business owners SEO could be viewed as a “mysterious art”, which it really isn’t. It is however a specialised area that is unfortunately full of people who dont know what they’re doing, and are simply out to “cash in”.

I’ve been involved in the SEO space since 2003, and in that time I think I’ve met 3, maybe 4 people that really knew what they were doing.

This is the other problem. Anyone can sound like they know what they’re talking about – especially when speaking to business owners over the phone who know nothing about SEO. This is what makes sleazy persuasive sales tactics in this space so effective.

Sales agents are praying on clueless business owners who focus on the wrong things. “We want to be first in Google”. “How many keywords can we rank for?”, “How long to be first page”. These are the very questions that sleazy sales agents want to hear, because it demonstates low level thinking.

Instead, (and this is very important) business owners should be asking questions like – “What type of return on investment could we expect?”, “How could you help us increase our sales, or customer enquiries?”, “How can we improve our conversion rates?”

Shitty SEO agencies wont mention metrics like these because they dont care. They’ll sell you meaningless dribble like “35% of your keywords first page”, or “SEO optimised articles”

In other words, when you’re on the phone, or viewing an SEO agency on the web, the discussion and pitch should be based around this …

How can this business engagement help me increase revenue

Thats it.

Thats the whole point of the exercise.

Not keywords, not rankings, not keyword density, or links or anything.

If you’re not having that discussion, then chances are, you’re out to waste a lot of money.

In answer to your other questions ….

However how would you define how many hours required to run SEO service?

That varies between campaigns. Ive gotten good results in 3 months, other times its taken 18 months. Whats important however is that the person you’re speaking with sets REALISTIC expectations. Most SEO agencies will sell you all sorts of wonderful promises. “We guarantee rankings by next Tuesday”.

Bullshit.

Most campaigns on average take at least 12 months.

Would you set up stages, what would be involved, time frame, expected results etc?

You do setup in stages, this is why SEO is provided as a month to month service. Otherwise you’d be paying for 150-250 hours up front which would be incredibly expensive. As to what’s involved, that varies too, as do time frames as explained above.

Expected results should be discussed before you engage with someone, so that you’re clear about KPI’s and overall objectives.

Most people simply say “We want to be first for this keyword” then throw money at someone, then wonder why nothings happening 8 months later.

Again, your focus should be conversions, sales, customer enquiries and revenue. If someone is paying me $2,000 a month, they should be getting back 5,7,10,15,000 per month.

I would recommend you have a read of this article, here and this one here

Thanks John. I like straight shooters and you sound like one I will read your article and will come back to you if I have any further questions.

I think what you’ve explained makes perfect sense and hopefully your short presentation should give more confidence for the readers to explore more about your services. Good on you.

[bb1]

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John Romaine, post: 246328, member: 39536 wrote:

Reputable companies charge an hourly rate. Dickheads charge $299 a month.

John yes, you know it, I know it, but as some of the comments above have said, people don’t know how much SEO is needed in a month. So someone being quoted @299 a month, may just assume that it’s a $100 an hour and only 3 hours is needed.

That’s why just giving an hourly figure on a forum as a guide to what makes someone a good SEO person is dangerous for a small business person who has no real idea.

[bb1]

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Aidan, post: 246331, member: 2298 wrote:

Bert,

your comment could apply to any field. For example I might say the exact same thing about gardening or landscaping:

“I could open BB1 Gardening Rip off services, charge 200 bucks an hour…”

but would it make sense? No, I’d just look an idiot for saying something like that. Nobody but a wealthy fool (about to be poor) is going to judge a service based on what the hourly rate is.
Aidan,

At least in my business, the client can see progress, or at least me attending their property and saying yes he isn’t sleeping under a tree, so it looks roughly right.

In the SEO field its all smoke and mirrors done in the background, just a post on here I read today said it could take 3 to 18 months to see results, so I am paying over all these dollars and possibly not even seeing you sleep under a tree.

What I am saying is rather then on a public forum where most people have little idea of SEO and how many hours it may take. and just saying if you are charged over $75.00 the person must be good. It needs more then that.

[Paul – FS Concierge]

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I don’t know if this would be helpful, some of the issues in talking about SEO generically is that every case is different because both the outside influences ie, the competitiveness of the category as well as the locations targeted as well as the site owners goals and how quickly they need results.

Obviously, there are other factors, especially the structure of the site which may need a lot of work as well as whether, “repairs” need to be made to rectify previously dodgy efforts.

All of these broad brush efforts require work.

In gardening terms, until some basic questions are answered, we don’t know if we are mowing a little patio 25 mins away from your nearest job to the patio location monthly or broad acreage weekly located next door to your favourite job..

Giving broad guidance on hourly rates is somewhat helpful in my opinion as it gives a reference point.

For example, I would prefer to pay a well regarded independent operator $75-$200 per hour than a large agency $200+ per hour.

And I have heard rumours that some large agencies use techniques they know they shouldn’t.

Nobody questions that people are prepared to pay for gardening services even though they can do it themselves. When I had a gardener, watching him work while I slipped the proverbial latte was one of the most enjoyable part’s of my week (because I hate gardening and I am terrible at it – I wish I didn’t feel that way btw).

I knew I was paying for the convenience but I also knew that he did a better job than I ever could and much quicker and the result was much better.

Knowing the quality of the person and what they stand for is, covers off most of the puzzle pieces for me.

SEO can drive a business’ sales and profitability and the upside can be enormous so working with a competent, independent provider like we have many of here on Flying Solo, can be worth the fee+++.

[Aidan]

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[USER=8383]@Bert[/USER] – how about you say things like that in discussion rather than the more provocative way you like to blow things up!

As I’ve pointed out to you in the past and as others have done too, every case is different, results will vary. Getting someone good on your side is going to come down to seeing who has a good reputation then appoint them.

It’s much the same ass choosing a cleaner, painter, gardener or mechanic or… or… etc.

If you know enough you could ask some questions as to how they might approach the job, you do need to know your onions before doing that though or you can’t tell the good answers from the bad ones.

Personally, I didn’t question the surgeon who did my colonoscopy a few years ago (a present from our government on my 50th yay!) – there was no point because I could not tell a good answer from a bad one.

I also didn’t get involved in any discussions in colonoscopy threads on forums because I could not possibly lend value there. But I did know others were happy with him so made the decision and got on with it.

I have no idea what smoke and mirrors you’re talking about – I could say it about other industries who try to bamboozle people like me though – had a gardener like that once!

[USER=7506]@Paul[/USER] – Great answer, every case is different. It can come down to risking it yourself or paying someone who knows better. You make your choices.

And, yes you’re right some of those agencies can be quite naughty. Poorly supervised offshoring and link farming among other bad practices.

[John Romaine]

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bb1, post: 246340, member: 53375 wrote:

In the SEO field its all smoke and mirrors

No its not, and voicing that opinion here only worsens the view of the industry and those of us that work in it.

If you do see it as smoke and mirrors then obviously you have no real understanding of what’s involved or how it works, or perhaps you simply don’t care.

Much like I don’t about gardening.

Look, this whole “SEO thing” comes up frequently here, and has done for years with the same outcome – opinions get thrown around, people get upset and threads get locked.

This is why the whole SEO forum probably got shut down.

Having said that, let’s try and keep this somewhat positive.

Bert look, I could seriously outline everything I do in a campaign here in this post, (even just one month) and it would be an incredible waste of time.

Why?

Because it’s not sexy. Infact you’d probably see it as being quite boring, OR you simply wouldn’t care, OR you’d tell me how to do my job.

Im really not interested in having to justify what I do, as I’m sure none of us are. Ive invested tens of thousands of hours to acquire the knowledge I have, and do what I do well. There’s a LOT more involved with SEO than what most people think.

Just as I’m sure theres a lot more involved with trimming hedges and mowing lawns.

[bb1]

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[USER=39536]@John Romaine[/USER] Maybe if you would have read the whole post instead of just a couple of selective words, it would not be so unclear to you what I was saying.

To quote
”At least in my business, the client can see progress, or at least me attending their property and saying yes he isn’t sleeping under a tree, so it looks roughly right.

In the SEO field its all smoke and mirrors done in the background, just a post on here I read today said it could take 3 to 18 months to see results, so I am paying over all these dollars and possibly not even seeing you sleep under a tree.”

I repeat, the client can see me mowing their lawn, or planting a tree. In your business it can appear to be smoke and mirrors, as you are sitting in an office possibly in another state or even a different country, where they cant see anything happening. Sure you may give them a report or 2, but until they get some tangible results, there isn’t much to be seen.

I spent many years doing remote support of systems all over Australia, so I have dealt in the smoke and mirrors business. With sites being down for a day or 2 at a time, and all they know of my activities is when I ring them to say do this or do that, and they think you are off on an extended lunch break in between.. And that’s where to the uninitiated (read small business person), who are presented with various options, they are left wondering what they are spending their money on, and you can understand, why they may succumb to the cheaper option.

You say it yourself above ” There’s a LOT more involved with SEO than what most people think.”, a 100% true statement, but that’s where the good SEO people (like those on here), have to sell it in the right way, not just say those charging monthly are dickheads (to use your words), and those charging hourly are good people, sure that may be a differentiator, but there is much more then just price (my original comment that sparked this).

Re your last comment, ”Just as I’m sure theres a lot more involved with trimming hedges and mowing lawns.”… Really there isn’t much involved, and anyone can run out and do it, and that’s why we get every tom, dick and harry who can throw a mower and a hedge trimmer in the back of the ute, and not charge GST and not declare it to the tax department. But I don’t tell my clients that I am better because I charge higher dollars, because seriously I have seen some of the cheapies do as good a job. But that’s another story for another century.

[John Romaine]

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bb1, post: 246356, member: 53375 wrote:

[USER=39536]@John Romaine[/USER]In your business it can appear to be smoke and mirrors, as you are sitting in an office possibly in another state or even a different country, where they cant see anything happening.

Not in my business, no. Clients see everything.

I provide them with a work summary sheet that itemizes everything I do, along with an end of month strategy call where we jump on Skype and I go over everything in detail.

What work has been completed, what works coming up.

They ask questions and I answer them. Ill even share my screen and walk them through it if they like. In other words, there’s total transparency.

They know everything, every task, every detail.

But here’s what Ive found. Clients may only want to do this for the first few months (in such detail) then once they’re comfortable and they trust me, they’ll usually ask fewer questions about what Im doing and just let me get on with it.

Same I’m sure with you.

New customers might watch you the first few times you mow their lawns, and they might question you, or perhaps even ask you to do it a certain way. But once you’ve built that trust, they may not even be home – yet they still pay you.

Again, its not smoke and mirrors, its a legitimate service. Just as yours is.

Im not sure why you would think that any service offering is viewed a certain way unless the customer can “see you”. I get my car serviced all the time and I dont stand beside the mechanic watching him, nor do I sit across the road with a pair of binoculars.

Anyway, Im not sure Ill bother responding from here, were just going around in circles.

[Johny]

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Not in my business, no. Clients see everything.

What you describe is a great way of providing a transparent service.

My question would be whether it is reflective , or a benchmark, for what happens in the SEO industry?

If it is, then great, if it isn’t then you are not qualifying anything about the ethics of those generally in SEO, just those that you feel describe yourself. And that is where the difference lies, because even a dullard like me knows there are a lot of sheisters out there.

I know bugger all about SEO, don’t even really care about it to any large extent, although that may well change in the not to distant future. What I do know though is two things:-

1) The harder it is to quantify a tangible result, the more likely it is that people will use smoke and mirrors to highlight the benefits of what they do. It is universal, and not restricted to any particular industry. In that regard, Bert is absolutely correct.

2) The less people understand something such as a service, the more inclined they are to select the cheapest option. That can be for any number of reasons, but one of them can just as easily be the lack of ability for those within the industry to sell themselves effectively.

That actually works in your favour if you can show them what you do and sell them the benefits based on that rather than the guarantee of a result.

I am in an industry that has a lot of scammers, and people who talk it but don’t walk it. I don’t get it right all the time either. But if there is even a perception of unethical behavior it is brought about by those within the industry. I have no control over what the others do, so I don’t dwell on it these days, just highlight what should happen.

I reckon if you had have said what you said just above, it would have kept this discussion to just one or two pages.

[m4engineers]

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John Debrincat, post: 221943, member: 2969 wrote:

Oh my god I hate the term “SEO” I think that the “O” should stand for opinion because mostly that is all they are and generally pretty poor.

The most important and most basic thing that a website owner needs to understand is that good content leads to good organic search results.

I laugh ever time I see an email that promises me first place on Google. Now if you promise every company in the same market segment first place then……..!

If you are going to use a service then find a local business who will speak to you about what you need to do. Most of the dodgy overseas ones will want a credit card upfront and will run some automated software that can do more harm than good.

If you receive an automated report with the 400 odd things wrong with your website then treat it with the contempt that it should get. Many SEO companies work on the fear factor, don’t believe them.

If you work with a professional content marketing organisation then they will engage with you and not just make promises.

Apologies to some of you that pitch themselves as SEO experts and I know that some of you really are and do a great job.

John
Totally agree, Google has been saying for a very long time now … you need good and unique contents structure. Five years ago, backlinks are very important factors in ranking a site, but today on-site content is more important than ever. Build on your content, Google will reward you. Gaming the system is not usually sustainable for the long term.

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