Home – New Forums Marketing mastery Internet Marketing is Overrated. How do YOU profit without marketing?

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  • #1042780
    Clinton
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    Quote:
    I challenge you to give an example of a successful business that has one or more customers that does not participate in any marketing functions.
    Domainers
    #1042781
    altima
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    Clinton, post: 52029 wrote:
    Domainers
    would argue
    regularly get spam from that folks trying to sell me domains similar with my business name.

    I think that only business people that can claim to be able to live without marketing are investors/traders, working on highly organized markets (stock exchanges, forex) and investing their own money. However if we think deeper, they pay for marketing to exchanges or brokers who do that job for them and withheld commission.

    #1042782
    marketingweb
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    Clinton, post: 52029 wrote:
    Domainers

    A good example, and one where I will agree with you that the marketing involved is very limited compared to a lot of other businesses, but does still eixst.

    You will probably think I’m pushing the definition here a little bit which I probably am, but the below would all generally be considered to involve marketing functions in my opinion. And no, having your morning coffee isn’t marketing – unless you are wearing your logo’d shirt, then maybe it is! :-)

    Using the “Four P’s of Marketing” from lesson 1 of any marketing course – just to keep it simple.

    Product:
    The Domainer specifically and strategically selects stock (of domains) to acquire based on their perceived market desirability or attractiveness of the stock now and into the future. Or in other words, they don’t randomly purchase domains – they pick ones on what will be saleable. Ensuring your product is suited to the target market or that a target market exits or will exist is a definite marketing function.

    Price:
    A domainer will have either a set price or an idea of price they are willing to take. This price will be set based on the market value vs perceived future market value if held, plus other things like cash flow, taking profits, desire to reinvest into more attractive domains etc. Setting a price is a market function, and most smart domainers I know are a bit like Kenny Rodger’s “the gambler” – they know when to hold em, and know when to fold em.

    Place (Distribution)
    For a domainer this element doesn’t play a bit part. It could be argued that the Internet itself is the distribution channel and any transactions which occur online are included, but to me that would be pushing it too far.

    Promotion
    Most domainers I know don’t just sit on their domains and leave them not even resolving, they like to “monetize” them. They put up parking pages and the like, which do two thing – generate a bit of advertising revenue in the mean time, but also I guess “unofficially” let people know the domain may be for sale. Putting up a parking page is like advertising “hey, i’m not really using this domain for much, so there is a chance I may want to sell it.”. It’s the opposite of putting up a fully developed site which gives the opposite marketing message: “I’m serious in business here and probably won’t want to sell my domain by itself”. Many even take it further and put up “This domain may be for sale” text somewhere on their parking page.

    Most domainers I know also don’t just sit on all their domains, at least not forever. They use sites like Netfleet in Australia, or Sedo in the US/UK to advertise domains for sale on. Other big players locally such as Pacific Octane even create their own very professional websites including very limited advertising of the fact they have domains available for either sale or even lease.

    Now I presume with your example you are suggesting a domainer who just holds everything, with no holding or parking page, maybe the domain not even resolving, and doesn’t participate in any form of domain sales or trading sites or forums. While this is pretty extreme and unlikely at least in my limited experience, you could argue that this person doesn’t perform any promotion. On the other hand it could possibly also be argued that the simple fact they have provided an accurate and working method of contact via the registry, publically accessible via a whois lookup, is in fact itself a super basic marketing task.

    I think that will do me for now, perhaps others have some thoughts in either direction. As I said, in the above example I will definitely agree there is not a lot of marketing and many domainers are not really marketing focused at all (although others are). Even in this extreme example though marketing exists.

    Matt

    #1042783
    Clinton
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    Quote:
    A good example, and one where I will agree with you that the marketing involved is very limited compared to a lot of other businesses, but does still eixst.
    Yes, if you use your own definition instead of the standard one I offered in the OP.

    altima, because some idiots spam you isn’t conclusive evidence that you have to market to be a domainer. Domainers are known to make large sums from people tracking them down via WHOIS and making offers.

    Quote:
    On the other hand it could possibly also be argued that the simple fact they have provided an accurate and working method of contact via the registry, publically accessible via a whois lookup, is in fact itself a super basic marketing task.
    LOL. It’s a condition of ICAAN that you provide accurate details. I’ll bear in mind that unless I pay extra for domain privacy I’m actually marketing my domain.

    OK, I’ll move on, it could be painful seeing people trying to break down the gaming, Adsense, Poker and other online models as not being businesses or being businesses that do “marketing”. This looks like it’s just going to continue as a thread struggling to prove why there’s marketing in everything rather than achieving what I set out to in the OP. The people I’m looking for are likely not here.

    #1042784
    Anonymous
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    Clinton, post: 52037 wrote:
    The people I’m looking for are likely not here.
    __________________
    The business of investing in internet businesses

    Is it just me who finds this whole debate ironic? Clinton begins a thread about “profiting without marketing”, and then ensures that each of his replies contain the above forum signature to “market” a forum/website about profiting from domaining. ;)

    I think my head just exploded.

    #1042785
    altima
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    Adam Wozniak – wecancreate, post: 52041 wrote:
    Is it just me who finds this whole debate ironic? Clinton begins a thread about “profiting without marketing”, and then ensures that each of his replies contain the above forum signature to “market” a forum/website about profiting from domaining. ;)

    I think my head just exploded.

    Just to the point, Adam :)

    Probably it is not a marketing, just a contingency and Clinton is not promoting his resource at all :)

    #1042786
    Clinton
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    Quote:
    each of his replies contain the above forum signature to “market” a forum/website about profiting from domaining. ;)
    The forum in my signature is a completely non-profit site started by a group of web investors. It’s one where I devote many working hours every week helping others (for free) because that’s the area in which I have expertise. I don’t “profit” from it by a single cent.

    I should feel honoured that so many marketers feel threatened enough to make so many posts in a thread that doesn’t concern them … and take the trouble to attack me personally, but instead I’m just disappointed at the response…this thread wasn’t intended as a debate about the importance of marketing.

    Quote:
    But, I’m open-minded, and I’d certainly love to hear a specific example
    Obviously not open minded enough.
    #1042787
    JohnSheppard
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    Clinton, post: 52013 wrote:
    It’s unfortunate that marketing folk feel the need to defend their function in this thread. I was simply hoping to attract business people who are making a living online without marketing (maybe even without a product or service). I got the idea that this forum had a wide range of business folk and expected/hoped that some of my kind would be here too. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe the next step for this thread will be the marketers finding some tenuous link in the above business examples to “demonstrate” there’s marketing involved. Or perhaps they’ll try to explain why those LTD companies with auditors, annual accounts and tax bills aren’t really businesses. Oh well. :(

    Why’s it unfortunate, they’re just trying to clarify the situation for other people who don’t understand it. There’s really no reason to be depressed. All professions defend their turf from people who don’t understand it. It’s normal.

    If you were after people who were making a living on line, why not choose a more appropriate thread title such as “Looking for people making a living on line”? I think you will find that to be more effective. Ditching all the other superfluous stuff would probably have helped too.

    Ironically…say, if you marketed your thread correctly…the right kind of thread reader/poster would have come your way :)

    #1042788
    Aidan
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    Good thread,

    And yes it depends on your definition of marketing as to how you see it!

    I’ve always admired those businesses without customers and there are many of them.

    I had a discussion with a fairly large company once that had no customers at all, just thousands of websites. Their many employees basically built websites, developed natural traffic to them or bought it and profited from the advertising they placed on those sites. Of course by co-ordinating the overall effort and interlinking they made the best of it. That business is still going today quietly making profits without customers to service :)

    Many SEO/PPC knowledgeable folk do this on a small level, others take it to the multi millions. Is it business? Sure it is – because it is an activity intended to make a profit, try telling the ATO otherwise!

    #1042789
    marketingweb
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    Clinton, post: 52037 wrote:
    LOL. It’s a condition of ICAAN that you provide accurate details. I’ll bear in mind that unless I pay extra for domain privacy I’m actually marketing my domain.

    OK, I’ll move on, it could be painful seeing people trying to break down the gaming, Adsense, Poker and other online models as not being businesses or being businesses that do “marketing”. This looks like it’s just going to continue as a thread struggling to prove why there’s marketing in everything rather than achieving what I set out to in the OP. The people I’m looking for are likely not here.

    Clinton, you set me a challenge, and I met it. You then ignore most of my examples, pick out one example you don’t buy (ICAAN registration) and dismiss the whole post because you don’t buy just one example? Pleeeeze!

    JohnSheppard, post: 52065 wrote:
    Ironically…say, if you marketed your thread correctly…the right kind of thread reader/poster would have come your way :)

    Well said John, I got a laugh out of that.

    Matt

    #1042790
    Clinton
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    Quote:
    for other people who don’t understand it…from people who don’t understand it
    Hmm. John, I’m sorry for my ignorance. My first job as an adult was as a medical sales rep. I progressed to senior marketing positions and then, with a 98 percentile GMAT, returned to school for an MBA at a US university graded, at that time, in the top 20 for marketing (and finance). But, should I want to brush up my “understanding” of marketing, I’ll drop you a PM or buy an ebook written by some spotty faced teenager who’s a guru because he made $500 on the internet.

    I started the OP recognising how important marketing is for most organisations. But I’ve also discovered though decades in business that it’s entirely possible to run successful businesses without marketing (as defined by the dictionary). I’m 45. I’m retired. I’ll let my bank manager decide if I’m doing OK ;)

    Quote:
    Ironically…say, if you marketed your thread correctly…the right kind of thread reader/poster would have come your way :)
    So you accept that such a reader – who runs a business with no marketing – does exist! If he hasn’t posted in here it’s because the thread has been inundated by marketers desperate to defend their ilk.

    Quote:
    Clinton, you set me a challenge, and I met it.
    Matt, it wasn’t a challenge. I’m not challenging anyone here, you marketers are. ;) If I may quote you

    Quote:
    I challenge you to give an example of a successful business that has one or more customers that does not participate in any marketing functions.
    Forgot? I appreciate your detailed post but it doesn’t merit a point by point reply. Your post exists to argue that some domainers do market their domains. I don’t dispute that so there’s nothing to reply to. But if there exists one domainer who just sits on his domains till someone approaches him then he has customers and is running a marketing-free business (which satisfies the specific challenge in your above quote).

    I don’t need to challenge anyone because I don’t care what they believe. The reason why marketers have flooded this thread is because it matters to them that others continue to believe the myth. In fact, they probably subscribe devotedly to the belief themselves and, to them, it’s not a myth at all.

    Quote:
    Good thread, And yes it depends on your definition of marketing as to how you see it!
    I don’t know about good thread, Aidan, it got derailed by a mob :) but I agree that it depends on your definition of marketing. That’s why I took the trouble to explain in the OP what definition I was using. The trouble is that some marketers refuse to accept what the dictionary says – which is fine – but they continue to apply their own definition to my comments … which ends up riling them.

    Quote:
    I’ve always admired those businesses without customers and there are many of them.

    I had a discussion with a fairly large company once that had no customers at all
    It would be great if you dropped me a PM with the name of the company and/or their URL.

    Quote:
    That business is still going today quietly making profits without customers to service :)
    There are many like those but I fear we aren’t going to hear about them in this thread now.
    #1042791
    marketingweb
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    Clinton, post: 52197 wrote:
    Forgot? I appreciate your detailed post but it doesn’t merit a point by point reply. Your post exists to argue that some domainers do market their domains. I don’t dispute that so there’s nothing to reply to. But if there exists one domainer who just sits on his domains till someone approaches him then he has customers and is running a marketing-free business (which satisfies the specific challenge in your above quote).

    At risk of just flogging the dead horse that this has become, I wouldn’t say someone in that situation was running a business anyway – I would say they are an investor. A business is active in some way, not passively holding an investment.

    Clinton, post: 52197 wrote:
    Hmm. John, I’m sorry for my ignorance. My first job as an adult was as a medical sales rep. I progressed to senior marketing positions and then, with a 98 percentile GMAT, returned to school for an MBA at a US university graded, at that time, in the top 20 for marketing (and finance). But, should I want to brush up my “understanding” of marketing, I’ll drop you a PM or buy an ebook written by some spotty faced teenager who’s a guru because he made $500 on the internet.

    In the end though neither of us are going to agree so it’s probably at a dead end. You do seem to love to belittle anyone who believes marketing is important, and then sprout your marketing experience as part of your MBA presumably before you “saw the light”.

    To be honest that you have an MBA surprises me, as you really don’t put your arguments across very cohesively, which to be me would be a prerequisite of a skilled marketer which you elude to the fact you apparently once were. To be honest I had picked you for a successful businessman who had achieved success through a combination of of savvy, hard work and a bit of luck, rather than being educated.

    Matt

    #1042792
    Clinton
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    To be honest I had picked you for a successful businessman who had achieved success through a combination of of savvy, hard work and a bit of luck, rather than being educated.
    I got the education. I put in the hard work. Very hard work. But it wasn’t either of those that contributed as much as luck. Luck and … taking the right risks, making the right contacts, watching the cash flow, recognising what worked for me, being willing to drop what wasn’t … etc. These, and luck, turned out to be a lot more important than the hard work, the education, the learning of English as a second language …or any knowledge of marketing ;)

    Quote:
    At risk of just flogging the dead horse that this has become
    Yeah, thanks to all who contributed to taking the thread off-topic, but I agree it certainly has run its course.
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