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  • #1178973
    JohnW
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    Wordsmith, post: 209001 wrote:
    Naomi

    I’m not going to get into specifics, because all the back and forth is just going to get confusing (and also because I don’t have the time to keep coming back to this thread), so I’m just going to point you in the direction of some useful articles that explain better what I’m trying to get at.

    1 – Here’s an article on the Relationship between social and SEO, by Hootsuite. With 10 million users around the world, Hootsuite is the world’s most widely used social relationship platform, so I feel confident they’re an authority on the subject matter.

    2 – This article from Forbes provides 6 Social Media Practices That Boost SEO. And there are plenty more recommendations if you do a bit of a Google.

    Best of luck on your social media journey!!!
    Hi Wordsmith,
    With respect, the last place I want to go is into a “he said, she said” argument.

    That said, I fear that “publishing content on social media helps your SEO” is rapidly emerging as the latest in a long line of SEO myths.

    This one seems to be driven by the new service industry of “social media consultants”. Good luck to them and they should be able to provide a very valuable service.

    However, if they are tricked into promolgating innacurate Internet marketing strategies and tactics they are IMHO, a danger to their clients.

    The biggest problem on the Internet is accuracy of information. These are my observations about the references you cited to us, above.

    1. The Hootsuit article: [Moderator note: Text outside the guidelines has been removed]

    … the article … is full of inaccuracies and generalisations that are almost as damaging as the inaccuracies.

    2. The Forbes article: [Moderator note: Text outside the guidelines has been removed]

    The problem with this article is that it is so generalised as to be useless.

    Quote: “Since social media relies on high-quality content…”
    Who would call Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Pintrest high quality content?

    Quote: “Google can detect the quality of your followers…”
    Can anyone tell me how Google achieves this? Can someone please give me a reference from a G spokesperson?

    Quote: “Social media is also useful because it encourages more external sites to link to your content, and the more diverse external links you have, the more authority you’ll gain in Google’s eyes.”
    I defy anyone to be able to support this statement. To my knowledge this is not how G assess external link values.

    There are lots of brand name publishers hiring very inexperienced writers to spit out content that fills the ether. They are frequently relying on their brand names for article credibility. These two seem to fit this mould perfectly.

    FS SEOs and Consultants,
    I believe the experienced Internet marketers on FS should take even more care when citing references so that we don’t contribute to SEO or social media myths.

    Small Business Owners,
    I hope this post encourages you to check the bone fides of any citation on the Internet.
    Regs,
    JohnW

    #1178974
    bb1
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    JohnW, post: 209112 wrote:
    Hi Wordsmith,
    With respect, the last place I want to go is into a “he said, she said” argument.

    That said, I fear that “publishing content on social media helps your SEO” is rapidly emerging as the latest in a long line of SEO myths.

    This one seems to be driven by the new service industry of “social media consultants”. Good luck to them and they should be able to provide a very valuable service.

    However, if they are tricked into promolgating innacurate Internet marketing strategies and tactics they are IMHO, a danger to their clients.

    The biggest problem on the Internet is accuracy of information. These are my observations about the references you cited to us, above.

    1. The Hootsuit article : [Moderator note: Text outside the guidelines has been removed]

    … the article … is full of inaccuracies and generalisations that are almost as damaging as the inaccuracies.

    2. The Forbes article: [Moderator note: Text outside the guidelines has been removed]

    The problem with this article is that it is so generalised as to be useless.

    Quote: “Since social media relies on high-quality content…”
    Who would call Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Pintrest high quality content?

    Quote: “Google can detect the quality of your followers…”
    Can anyone tell me how Google achieves this? Can someone please give me a reference from a G spokesperson?

    Quote: “Social media is also useful because it encourages more external sites to link to your content, and the more diverse external links you have, the more authority you’ll gain in Google’s eyes.”
    I defy anyone to be able to support this statement. To my knowledge this is not how G assess external link values.

    There are lots of brand name publishers hiring very inexperienced writers to spit out content that fills the ether. They are frequently relying on their brand names for article credibility. These two seem to fit this mould perfectly.

    FS SEOs and Consultants,
    I believe the experienced Internet marketers on FS should take even more care when citing references so that we don’t contribute to SEO or social media myths.

    Small Business Owners,
    I hope this post encourages you to check the bone fides of any citation on the Internet.
    Regs,
    JohnW

    Can you double like a post on here.

    The one very important message from this post, is that on the web, you can find any amount of articles to support any arguement you like. And the problem is people take either arguement as gospel if it suits their point of view.

    Just because someone has 10 million users or 20000 followers, or 50000 likes, it does not make them an authority. If they are a commercial company of course they are going to publish articles which push their own barrow.

    Caveat Emptor – Dont just assume, ask the question

    #1178975
    MatthewKeath
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    JohnW, post: 209112 wrote:
    That said, I fear that “publishing content on social media helps your SEO” is rapidly emerging as the latest in a long line of SEO myths.

    Here is my take. The more widely your content is shared to more organic links you get from other blogs, websites, news sites etc.

    Good organic backlinks help your SEO + they help get your name / brand out there.

    Nothing in the first article really says anything different. (but the Twitter point and the Google + point).

    And what would you define as high quality content? Just because it’s shared socially instantly make it low quality? Who should be the arbiter of this?

    #1178976
    bb1
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    Hey Matt,

    Thanks for the PM, but just to let you and all the so called “chatter” know, I am not JohnW, unfortunately I cant write as many words, or as elegant as JohnW, plus my spelling and grammar is hopeless..

    The only reason I can think that this chatter exists is that I am prepared to question the established marketing and SEO community. And also take the view from the small business perspective rather than the big end of town with heaps of money to spend. And if there is something wrong with that, well than I am nore than happy to be accused of trying to help the small person.

    You may notice I dont only question the SEO guys/gals i have queried comments made by accountants and others as well,

    Thanks for the complement, but unfortunately wrong tram today.

    I am who i am.

    Bert

    #1178978
    John Romaine
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    JohnW, post: 208763 wrote:
    The bottom line is:

    • no one knows much at this stage

    Wow.

    Pretty big assumption there, John.

    I do quite well with social and have done so since 2011. Sure there are a lot of people that don’t know what they’re doing – this is true in any space – but to simply assume that “no one” does is pretty ignorant.

    #1178979
    BFF Australia
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    Hi Naomi,

    As you I am trying to untangle the web that is social media networking. I have found through much research, content that resonates with your target market/your readers seem to work best.

    http://www.sbms.org.au ,http://www.tsbi.com.au and http://www.vecci.org.au hold events and networking opportunities to learn from, discuss and find mentor’s that can assist you in creating a solid base to start and build upon, best of all there free. http://www.vecci.org.au also provide a one-on-one consulting service, if you have an ABN your first 4hour session is free.

    Hope that helps, best of luck, I look forward to hearing of your success.

    #1178980
    Aidan
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    I think its important to draw the distinction between direct impact on SEO and indirect impact.

    There have been several experiments, surveys and papers written on that by people much wiser and with more data to examine than anyone here, and the expert view thus far essentially boils down to: some personalisation of SERPS is observed through G+ but there is little evidence of the other SM streams directly affecting SERPs.

    So far.

    It could potentially be changing in future, maybe even has started changing already since the last comprehensive study?! (Please don’t count Forbes Magazine and the like, I mean no less than the Eric Enge’s of the SEO world at minimum).

    Almost everyone agrees that the indirect effect is definitely there, i.e. the more the content gets known via SM, the more opportunity for it to pick up backlinks.

    The various studies showing correlation between Facebook sharing/ Twitter re-tweeting have largely been explained as: good content gets high SEO rankings and it also gets shared. It is not however the sharing that causes the good rankings other than via the indirect effect already mentioned.

    Note, much of that is not really relevant to small and micro business. The local plumber is not likely to write some pillar content that gets shared widely, nor does he need to.

    Is that a fair summary SEO folk?

    #1178981
    bb1
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    BFF Australia, post: 209163 wrote:
    Hi Naomi,

    As you I am trying to untangle the web that is social media networking. I have found through much research, content that resonates with your target market/your readers seem to work best.

    http://www.sbms.org.au ,http://www.tsbi.com.au and http://www.vecci.org.au hold events and networking opportunities to learn from, discuss and find mentor’s that can assist you in creating a solid base to start and build upon, best of all there free. http://www.vecci.org.au also provide a one-on-one consulting service, if you have an ABN your first 4hour session is free.

    Hope that helps, best of luck, I look forward to hearing of your success.

    Hey, I had a couple of sessions with the mentors from sbms.org.au, back when I was starting out, and although not social media, I can say that I was matched up with a knowledgable, retired mentor, who gave me a lot of good pointers and guidance. So this one is definitely worth looking at even if just looking for business focus.

    #1178982
    JohnW
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    Naomi’s thread is about social media.

    I’m trying to put things into perspective here…

    There is a non-causal correlation between between:

    1. Search ranking and links from Facebook, Twitter, G+, Instagram, etc. social media properties.
    2. The size of your own website

    Example…

    A. External Links Numbers
    Try a search for the word “home”. Here is what I see on G Au:

    Ranked 1. thehome.com.au
    External links to the page = 14,461

    Ranked 3. au.tv.yahoo.com/home-and-away/
    External links to the page = 1,529,375 links

    (Link numbers are as reported by the Ahref tool.)

    One hundred times the external link numbers for the Yahoo “Home and Away” page and it can’t knock off a dinky little 340 page website from position #1 out of 16 billion pages.

    This perhaps gives folk an idea of how hard it is to see any correlation between external link numbers and a page’s ranking let alone trying to assess the much more obscure and indirect pathway of a correlation with social media activity and SE referrals.

    B. Adding Pages to a Site
    I added 4 pages to a small B2B business website last Sep. As a result, the generic Google referrals to that site have more than trebled for the last 3 months compared to the same period a year ago.

    That increase cost my client a few hundred dollars of my time. I welcome input from anyone who can offer us examples of how many hours of posting on Facebook, Twitter, G+, Instagram, etc. it takes to improve a client’s generic SE referrals three-fold over a three month period vs. the same period a year ago.

    As Aidan says, the impact on search engine referrals of links from the above social media sites is so small that only people with access huge volumes of data can even see there is a non-causal correlation.

    Regs,
    JohnW

    #1178983
    John Romaine
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    Social is “intertwined” as part of SEO amongst many other variables (including what appears now to be UXO). Its all about demonstrating business legitimacy.

    I’m a big believer in “trust signals”

    Any legitimate business is most likely going to have at least one or many social media properties setup.

    Business owners should be looking at social as a means to drive additional traffic to supplement search traffic, not to artificially inflate it through “socially shared content”, or “internal social links”.

    #1178984
    JohnW
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    John Romaine, post: 209313 wrote:
    Social is “intertwined” as part of SEO amongst many other variables (including what appears now to be UXO). Its all about demonstrating business legitimacy.

    I’m a big believer in “trust signals”

    Any legitimate business is most likely going to have at least one or many social media properties setup.

    Business owners should be looking at social as a means to drive additional traffic to supplement search traffic, not to artificially inflate it through “socially shared content”, or “internal social links”.
    I’m constantly examining different online business market places. In the course of these audits I’m exploring the top ranked SE competition’s use of social media.

    Two findings from these very broad explorations:

    1. Most top ranked small business websites still don’t have any Facebook, Twitter, etc. presence

    2. I find sites which have no social media presence are equally out ranking sites that do.

    Example:
    Try a Google search for: railway sleepers

    The site that ranks # 1 has no social media program. I could fill pages with similar examples.

    Can you offer us a Google reference that tells us how “social is intertwined as part of SEO” and what impact that has?

    How about some examples of social media (Facebook, Twitter, etc.) programs that have improved your client’s SE referrals over 3 months for a few hundred dollar budget?

    How do you decide whether to advise a small business client to spend scarce dollars on adding content to their own site or on a social media program?

    JohnW

    #1178985
    MatthewKeath
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    JohnW, post: 209314 wrote:
    I’m constantly examining different online business market places. In the course of these audits I’m exploring the top ranked SE competition’s use of social media.

    Two findings from these very broad explorations:

    1. Most top ranked small business websites still don’t have any Facebook, Twitter, etc. presence

    2. I find sites which have no social media presence are equally out ranking sites that do.

    Example:
    Try a Google search for: railway sleepers

    The site that ranks # 1 has no social media program. I could fill pages with similar examples.

    Can you offer us a Google reference that tells us how “social is intertwined as part of SEO” and what impact that has?

    How about some examples of social media (Facebook, Twitter, etc.) programs that have improved your client’s SE referrals over 3 months for a few hundred dollar budget?

    How do you decide whether to advise a small business client to spend scarce dollars on adding content to their own site or on a social media program?

    JohnWThe problem is that not everyone is selling railway sleepers.

    #1178986
    JohnW
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    MatthewKeath, post: 209315 wrote:
    The problem is that not everyone is selling railway sleepers.
    Hi Matt,
    You are quite right. :)

    Some are selling

    garden supplies,
    building supplies,
    mini skip hire,
    waste management services,
    home loan mortgages,
    business equipment loans,
    rope access maintenance services,
    swimming pool equipment products,
    industrial magnet products,
    veterinary products or
    home delivered food services

    These are just some of the search markets I’ve audited in the last few months. Where are the examples from the social media “experts” who want to contest my statements?

    Facebook, Twitter, etc. are not universally used by the top ranked sites in these markets and the best correlation I can see is size of the site.

    Site size is not part of Google’s ranking algo but I invite everyone to offer proof that social media postings are more closely correlated to SE referrals than the size of a site.

    As I said above, I could go on for ever giving examples of small business search markets where I can’t see any evidence of Facebook, Twitter, etc. marketing programs having an impact on search results or SE referrals.

    The points I’m trying to make are that:

    1. If it is so hard to find evidence of social media impacting SE referrals when it is very easy to see examples of long term benefits of publishing content on a website, why are we having this debate?

    2. When people are apparently have trouble referencing SE spokespeople who can provide very clear and specific info about the use of social media signals in ranking results, why are we having this debate?

    3. How do you choose a Social Media Consultant?
    The first ones I’d eliminate are those who can’t offer an accurate and significant input to this discussion.

    Call me a “doubting Thomas” but please don’t misunderstand me.

    I am NOT saying social media is useless as an Internet marketing tool – far from it!

    I am saying that it, like SEO or buying ads on Google or social media has a place in online marketing.

    When it comes to a cost comparison of publishing content on a client’s site vs. SE referral generation with Facebook, Twitter, etc., it seems some consultants are having a difficulty offering examples of relevance to us.

    IMHO, beware of anyone making generalistic claims about the use of social media (Facebook, Twitter, etc.) for online marketing.

    Every online market place is different. There are many where I would recommend a planned and results measured social media program. There are others where it is clearly a waste of time.

    When it comes to justifying a social media program on the basis of it helping generic SE referrals, why can’t the consultants on FS who espouse these claims offer us proof?

    (I could throw in examples of up to 30-fold increases in SE referrals with no more than additional content +SEO on client’s sites. Why can’t those promoting social media’s impact on SE referrals get within a bull’s roar of this level of proof?)

    So far it seems, we have no one on FS who can provide us with unequivocal proof that social media programs have any impact on SE referrals.

    I live in hope however.
    Regs,
    JohnW

    #1178987
    MatthewKeath
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    ok, TLDR

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