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  • #1013292
    LeelaCosgrove
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    I totally see both sides of this argument …

    As a freelance writer for years Guru and Elance annoyed the bejebus out of me – because it was never about the quality of work. When you turn content (including visual content) into a commodity you always sacrifice quality …

    That said, I see the other side too – when you are starting out and need to get a logo or design done and you don’t have a lot of money to spend you care less about getting really great designs and more about just getting something done.

    So Dan, I totally see your point – but remember – the people you’re talking to here are NOT your target market (this is why having a niche is so important!) – because even if places like this / guru / elance DIDN’T exist they wouldn’t be spending money they don’t have …

    And Ideas / Brett – I see your point – but remember … if we were talking about YOUR industry – if someone started up a website that produced your product for a quarter of the price and with poor quality, you’d be angry too.

    Personally, my way around this has been to go out and find service providers who really ARE just starting out and take them under my wing. Not only do I get my design done at a reasonable price, I also help them with getting their business set up and refer a bunch of work to them so that they can afford to get things pumping.

    #1013293
    Accounts Studio
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    HI Leela

    Totally agree with your comments and there certainly are hundreds of bookkeepers with little knowledge who charge a cheap rate and cause no end of mess to their clients books. And yes it is incredibly annoying for those of us who have to clear it up.

    I guess one of my main points is that it is dangerous to generalise. I found my current graphic and web designers both on 99 designs. They both run professional organisations and have many years experience. They have both produced very good work and gone over and above the normal customer service. I have not needed to go back to 99 Designs as a result.

    Another point to note is this. When I launched http://www.space4.com.au some years ago I did not have a big budget for the website. As a result I used a web designer from Elance. He cost me $15,000 less than a local designer would have and it was the only option I could afford at the time. Was he a great designer and easy to deal with? Not especially, but had elance not been around then the site would never have existed and hundreds of single parents over the last 3 years would not have been able to improve their standard of living as a result.

    In a perfect world there would be no dodgy operators and we would all be able to afford the best of the best. But we do not live in a perfect world and different people have different needs

    #1013294
    Anonymous
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    Ideas Book, post: 14825 wrote:
    They both run professional organisations and have many years experience. They have both produced very good work…
    I don’t want this to sound like i’m picking on you, but how would you know what is good work and what isn’t? If you don’t know anything about design or web development, how can you differentiate between good and bad?

    I took a look at your ‘web designer’… D****n Knights. No physical address, no postal address, no phone number, no information about who they are, no info on where the web servers are located. Yet they call themselves a professional web hosting company. Their portfolio work is amateurish. Site is built in tables. I’ve seen hundreds of operators like these and they are usually some kid with a cracked copy of photoshop working out of his bedroom. They have little or no design education but love the idea of calling themselves a professional web designer and just on-sell a cheap reseller plan.

    the people you’re talking to here are NOT your target market

    Sad but true it seems if brett is your typical example.

    #1013295
    LeelaCosgrove
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    dan, post: 14829 wrote:
    Sad but true it seems if brett is your typical example.

    Flying Solo is predominantly full of people either starting out in business and solo-preneur hobby businesses … there are a handful of others on here, but the majority are starting out … they’re not being obnoxious, merely stating their own truths as they see them. Which is cool. Everyone goes on this journey for themselves and makes their own decisions.

    I’m sure there’s stuff you wouldn’t have been willing to spend money on when you first started out – and I’ll be there are people on here who would get REALLY annoyed at you not thinking their profession is as important as other stuff!

    We all see ourselves as the heroes of our own dramas – we all see our own passions (and particularly our own businesses) as incredibly central to good results for our clients. That’s why we’re STILL in business – if we didn’t believe that, we couldn’t sell. If we couldn’t sell, we’d have no money. And no money means back to a day job!

    It’s not sad – this community isn’t about marketing yourself and getting work (you can tell the people who are here for that reason – they disappear pretty quickly when they realise that’s not what FS is about). It is, however, a great opportunity to educate your market about why they need to understand the difference between cheaper and more expensive options so that one day, when they are ready, they’ll have some idea about what they’re looking for …

    #1013296
    Accounts Studio
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    Hi Dan

    Many thanks for your ‘feedback’.

    My site is built according to my budget. Terribly sorry it does not meet your expectations.

    How about we inject something positive into this post and you stand behind your comments and actually post your company name so that we can have a look at your portfolio and be educated in what true design is really all about.

    Now that I know that I know absolutely nothing about what good design is, or what is attractive to the eye, I, and I am sure the other readers of this post, would be honoured to be shown the essence of what great design is all about.

    I await in anticipation of being shown the light ……..

    #1013297
    Anonymous
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    FWIW, I’m not here to pickup…(notice the lack of sig). What gets up my goat is ignorant people who pump up something like 99designs and give opinions about an industry they know nothing about. If there is a service or skill I do not have, I ask questions and get advice from the best people possible. I don’t go looking for the cheapest option around.

    #1013298
    LeelaCosgrove
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    Sigh, Dan.

    The point I was obviously trying too subtley to make is that coming on to a forum and going around willy nilly attacking everyone for not understanding your industry isn’t going to get you far.

    Don’t get me wrong, as many of the regulars here will attest I’m the first to get bitey when people get my industry all back to front. But I would hope that even those who have been on the bitey end of my biteyness would agree that I at least endeavour to add value to people … that the majority of my posts are trying to help others … and THEN I get into the occasional slinging match.

    It’s great that you go to the best people you can find – not everyone starting a business has that option. Not everyone at that level has money. Many new businesses struggle to make ends meet – to pay their own bills let alone the business’ bills. And sometimes the $400-$500 difference between a crap designer and a decent one really WOULD break the bank.

    There are people like that on this site.

    Telling them they suck isn’t particularly constructive.

    Try ADDING some VALUE.

    Flies – honey, vinegar.

    #1013299
    LeelaCosgrove
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    PS IGNORANCE should NEVER make you angry.

    It is merely the absence of education, which means it CAN BE FIXED.

    I’m sure there are areas in which you are ignorant too. I know there are areas in which I’m ignorant. No one knows everything.

    Ignorance is solvable.

    #1013300
    bretthillcoat
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    dan, post: 14834 wrote:
    If there is a service or skill I do not have

    Tact maybe? Manners?

    What is wrong with someone getting good service from someone and telling others about it?
    You have positioned yourself as a know it all who’s sole purpose here is to tell others that they know nothing. Good thing you haven’t put yourself out there to ‘pick up’. Can’t see you getting much business with your attitude.

    Have a fantastic Day champ. Have enjoyed the laugh.

    #1013301
    Anonymous
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    bretthillcoat, post: 14837 wrote:
    What is wrong with someone getting good service from someone and telling others about it?

    The recommendation of 99designs and their process of logo work is NOT good advice and that is what i’m arguing about.

    You have positioned yourself as a know it all who’s sole purpose here is to tell others that they know nothing.

    That is your interpretation. I have never said I know it all. Just like I have never attacked sophie’s web site (nor even mentioned it), but she seems to think I have. You’re taking this personally when you shouldn’t be.

    #1013302
    Anonymous
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    LeelaCosgrove, post: 14835 wrote:
    It’s great that you go to the best people you can find – not everyone starting a business has that option. Not everyone at that level has money.
    I’m not saying I always get the best people. But I try to seek out the best possible. Possible being relative to what I can afford. I also don’t go for the cheapest option around and think that solves that, just because that’s all I can buy.
    #1013303
    Accounts Studio
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    Who says we are going for the cheapest option around and not just going for what we can afford?

    I must admit I am a little confused as to why you appear to be so reluctant to stand behind your own highest quality design work and let us see what we are all missing out on. I truly am genuinely interested in seeing what I could get if I went to the best rather than the ‘cheapest’.

    #1013304
    Anonymous
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    I’m not here to toot my own horn. And I never said I was the best. You started a thread recommending 99designs and I am simply telling you that services like that devalue the design industry and the effective execution of the logo design/branding process is not done via a competition.

    Don’t read any more than that into it.

    #1013305
    bretthillcoat
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    USed them. Very happy with the design I received, but not happy with the company. They invoiced me inclusive of GST in US dollars, something that is not very clearly stated throughout the transaction process. Make sure you look all the information on the help page before you launch a project.

    I was invoiced for $279.40 inc GST – for this reason I assumed I was being charged AUD since GST doesn’t apply anywhere else (except NZ). Anyway, I was charged $331 AUD. Invoice and amount charged now don’t add up so I request another invoice to be issued in AUD. 99Designs are an Australian company, so I figured this wouldn’t be a problem (I wouldn’t have asked for it if they were not Australian as the GST wouldn’t apply). After 20 emails back and forth, the end result is that they refused to issue me another one. So, now I have an invoice from an Australian company for $279.40 inclusive of $25.40 GST, with no ABN on the invoice and no way of telling that the amount invoiced was for USD.

    I am not saying don’t use them – use this info so you don’t get caught out. Can anyone out there tell me if this is normal practice? Am I in the wrong here?
    Brett

    #1013306
    Accounts Studio
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    Hi Brett

    That does not sound right at all to me. Do you have their ABN? Do a search and see if they are registered for GST. They have to provide you with a proper tax invoice. I had heard they had changed things a bit recently regarding payment. This certainly sounds very wrong though. Do they have a contact phone number?

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