The current state of the SEO industry and how you can avoid getting burnt

[John Romaine]

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Hey guys,

Over the past few weeks here at FS, I’ve noticed a lot of people bashing SEO, and how the SEO industry is nothing more than one big SCAM.

I can assure you that’s definitely not the case.

Given how active this discussion has been lately, I’ve decided to make this weeks podcast about the state of the SEO industry and how business owners can avoid getting ripped off.

For any business owner considering investing money towards SEO, be sure to have a listen. I think you will get a lot out of this.

http://goo.gl/67mvoo

PS – Happy to answer any questions.

[JohnW]

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Good post John R.

1. Let’s define SEO for starters.
How about we call it, the most cost-effective process of attracting potential clients using generic search engine referrals.

2. How is it done?
It is an ongoing process or cycle that involves:

• Research
• Planning
• Implementation
• Directing
• Monitoring

Recognise this? It’s also taught in business courses as the “management cycle”.

Cost-effective SEO services should follow this approach. If they don’t, RUN AWAY.

3. Who is involved in the process?
The implementation stage of SEO may involve:

• You or your staff
• Your web designer/developer
• Your copywriter
• The SEO service

At the very least, you need to manage/control the process.

If you don’t know how to do this, a good SEO should teach you the essentials.

4. Where does good SEO start?
Research into the current site:

• To identify any technical problems
• To identify important information your site is NOT delivering

Research into the online competition. This is crucial to the “cost-effectiveness” of any SEO implementation program.

Your online competitors are likely to be very different for different types of information searches.

A lot of the cost-effective benefit of SE referrals is derived from tactics. You do NOT want to target the “most frequently used” keywords you want to target the most cost-effective search methods and phrases.

Tip: Avoid any SEO that says “you don’t rank top for the most used keywords”.

5. What does SEO cost?
A good SEO can’t quote you a price until they know:

a. What problems there are with your site
b. The level of competition in your market
c. The level of SEO activity you want to implement
d. Who you want to involve in your SEO program (staff, developer, copywriter and/or SEO)

You might expect an SEO to only quote initially on the research phase and the development of a draft SEO plan.

If so, you should expect to sit down with a resultant draft SEO plan and the SEO consultant to discuss what you want to do, who you want to implement what parts of the plan and how quickly you want it implemented.

There is always something that can be done to improve search engine referrals. An SEO plan may report on-page elements that you or your staff can implement with no additional cost outlay and which may generate a quantum jump in referrals. At the other end of the scale may be a rare recommendation for a total site overhaul.

6. Performance Parameters
Performance is mission critical. Any good SEO knows this and should go out of his/her way to address it.

An experienced SEO also knows that most website owners don’t know how to establish performance parameters.

Relevant performance parameters are not based on search engine rankings. There are a number of relevant paramaters but to focus on the type reported in traffic reports, you want to see increases in visitors to important product or service pages on the client’s site.

Tip: Avoid SEOs who focus on your ranking for search phrases.

7. General SEO Selection Parameters
IMHO, SEO expertise is a combination of:

• General marketing training, knowledge and experience
• Knowledge of how search engines work
• Knowledge of how people search
• Constant research into how search engines change their algorithms
• Online experience of a search market for specific products or services
• Experimentation with search engine results

8. Selecting an SEO
Selecting an SEO consultant should be no different to any other poisition.

Howver, there is no “qualification” that people can cite that indicates a basic level of SEO expertise.

Many people cite completing the Google Adword online learning program to infer they know SEO. (I suggest avoiding them like the plague.)

I hope this helps dispel some of the waffle imparted by SEO companies who hide behind “jargon”, “cant” and a bunch of technical implementation offers.

Do your research. Don’t just look at website info, search on LinkedIn and other online media.
Regs,
JohnW

[bb1]

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Had to have a laugh when I listened to the podcast,

I belong to a gardening forum, and there was a post on there saying that you (not JohnR) were a rip of merchant if you had a higher price than the average company. At the same time there is another post saying that you are dodgy if your prices are to low.

John R’s Podcast is saying that you are dodgy if the price is to low. But because his pricess are high he is obviously giving you a good sevice.

I think the truth lies somehwere between the 2.

There are some excellent garden business’s offering ridiculously cheap prices to get the business, and doing an excellent job, but they will be out of business because their costs will outway the income. Others will be charging mega dollars and doing a dodgy job.

And the same goes for SEO business’s, the majority of cheap ones are most likely dodgy, but some will be doing a good job. And the converse is true, where there are some over priced SEO services, but doing a dodgy job.

SEO like garden services, is not just about the dollars the customer pays. It is also about the quality of work, and some are prepared to charge less, for the same quality.

If a business owner only picks an SEO company based on the fact they are charging them 1500 to 2000 a month, than they could end up with exactly the same issues as paying just 299 a month. It all comes down to understanding what is been delivered for your dollars.

Sorry all I got from the Podcast was don’t spend 299, but rather pick a business that will charge you 2000, that is no way to pick a SEO business.

[bb1]

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JohnW, post: 199793 wrote:

Good post John R.

1. Let’s define SEO for starters.
How about we call it, the most cost-effective process of attracting potential clients using generic search engine referrals.

2. How is it done?
It is an ongoing process or cycle that involves:

• Research
• Planning
• Implementation
• Directing
• Monitoring

Recognise this? It’s also taught in business courses as the “management cycle”.

Cost-effective SEO services should follow this approach. If they don’t, RUN AWAY.

3. Who is involved in the process?
The implementation stage of SEO may involve:

• You or your staff
• Your web designer/developer
• Your copywriter
• The SEO service

At the very least, you need to manage/control the process.

If you don’t know how to do this, a good SEO should teach you the essentials.

4. Where does good SEO start?
Research into the current site:

• To identify any technical problems
• To identify important information your site is NOT delivering

Research into the online competition. This is crucial to the “cost-effectiveness” of any SEO implementation program.

Your online competitors are likely to be very different for different types of information searches.

A lot of the cost-effective benefit of SE referrals is derived from tactics. You do NOT want to target the “most frequently used” keywords you want to target the most cost-effective search methods and phrases.

Tip: Avoid any SEO that says “you don’t rank top for the most used keywords”.

5. What does SEO cost?
A good SEO can’t quote you a price until they know:

a. What problems there are with your site
b. The level of competition in your market
c. The level of SEO activity you want to implement
d. Who you want to involve in your SEO program (staff, developer, copywriter and/or SEO)

You might expect an SEO to only quote initially on the research phase and the development of a draft SEO plan.

If so, you should expect to sit down with a resultant draft SEO plan and the SEO consultant to discuss what you want to do, who you want to implement what parts of the plan and how quickly you want it implemented.

There is always something that can be done to improve search engine referrals. An SEO plan may report on-page elements that you or your staff can implement with no additional cost outlay and which may generate a quantum jump in referrals. At the other end of the scale may be a rare recommendation for a total site overhaul.

6. Performance Parameters
Performance is mission critical. Any good SEO knows this and should go out of his/her way to address it.

An experienced SEO also knows that most website owners don’t know how to establish performance parameters.

Relevant performance parameters are not based on search engine rankings. There are a number of relevant paramaters but to focus on the type reported in traffic reports, you want to see increases in visitors to important product or service pages on the client’s site.

Tip: Avoid SEOs who focus on your ranking for search phrases.

7. General SEO Selection Parameters
IMHO, SEO expertise is a combination of:

• General marketing training, knowledge and experience
• Knowledge of how search engines work
• Knowledge of how people search
• Constant research into how search engines change their algorithms
• Online experience of a search market for specific products or services
• Experimentation with search engine results

8. Selecting an SEO
Selecting an SEO consultant should be no different to any other poisition.

Howver, there is no “qualification” that people can cite that indicates a basic level of SEO expertise.

Many people cite completing the Google Adword online learning program to infer they know SEO. (I suggest avoiding them like the plague.)

I hope this helps dispel some of the waffle imparted by SEO companies who hide behind “jargon”, “cant” and a bunch of technical implementation offers.

Do your research. Don’t just look at website info, search on LinkedIn and other online media.
Regs,
JohnW

JohnW, yet another well thought out and logical approach to SEO selection

[Byron Trzeciak]

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There are two big problems with SEO at the moment
a) The unhealthy obsessions businesses have with rankings
b) The lack of patience businesses have to implement long term strategies to achieve their goals i.e. content marketing

Businesses typically seek SEO services to generate more sales and leads with their website, at least that is what they’re trying to do by seeing higher rankings = more money.

As any SEO professional on here has said rankings and traffic do not equal conversions because:
a) Your website might be overcrowded and confusing
b) Your content might not provide the right answers
c) Your website might be slow
d) Your website might not respond to mobile devices

The list could go on.

There are no quick wins with SEO anymore and therefore if you’re looking to achieve first page rankings, for competitive terms, with minimal effort then be ready to receive a penalty from Google for doing so.

The lines between SEO, content marketing, social media marketing are starting to blur to some degree. While your onsite optimisation is typically something only an SEO expert will do for you a large part of your campaign might involve creating valuable content, targeted for your audience, and marketing that across social media.

If you’re not prepared to create content then your only other choice is to get into link building and this is typically where the dodgy SEO agencies jump on board and blast your website across the internet.

[John Romaine]

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bb1, post: 199794 wrote:

John R’s Podcast is saying that you are dodgy if the price is to low. But because his pricess are high he is obviously giving you a good sevice.

I have staff to pay. The knowledge and expertise they possess in order for me to provide my customers with a quality service costs money. I pay my staff anywhere between $25 an hour, up to $75 an hour depending upon the tasks that they’re performing.

I often speak with prospects who have been burnt by cheap SEO agencies, because they’ve taken shortcuts. The whole reason they’ve taken shortcuts, is because of their pricing point.

It’s basic maths 101.

If they’re charging you $299 per month for SEO, then how many hours do you think this will equate to? How much work do you think you could possibly have done for that per month?

Furniture removalists charge $160 an hour just to move coffee tables and couches.

bb1, post: 199794 wrote:

There are some excellent garden business’s offering ridiculously cheap prices to get the business, and doing an excellent job, but they will be out of business because their costs will outway the income.

That’s pretty stupid then isn’t it?

bb1, post: 199794 wrote:

Others will be charging mega dollars and doing a dodgy job.

And others will be charging appropriately and doing an excellent job. They’re the ones that will still be around in 20 years. Do you have any idea of how many SEO agencies simply flush their domain name, and relaunch under a different brand every 6 months?

bb1, post: 199794 wrote:

And the same goes for SEO business’s, the majority of cheap ones are most likely dodgy, but some will be doing a good job.

Define “cheap”.

I can tell you anything less than $1,000 per month is going to be absolute rubbish.

bb1, post: 199794 wrote:

And the converse is true, where there are some over priced SEO services, but doing a dodgy job.

That’s probably true too. However that’s most likely the case in any marketplace.

bb1, post: 199794 wrote:

If a business owner only picks an SEO company based on the fact they are charging them 1500 to 2000 a month, than they could end up with exactly the same issues as paying just 299 a month. It all comes down to understanding what is been delivered for your dollars.

Yes, what’s your point?

bb1, post: 199794 wrote:

Sorry all I got from the Podcast was don’t spend 299, but rather pick a business that will charge you 2000, that is no way to pick a SEO business.

You obviously didn’t listen to it all the way through, or failed to understand what was discussed.

Listen, I often turn prospects AWAY because I know we’re not a good fit. Because I know that they’re most likely not suitable at my pricing point. Dodgy SEO companies won’t care. They’ll happily sign anyone up at the cheapest rate possible.

I agree, business owners shouldn’t be shopping around on price, however unfortunately, most do, and that typically results in the posts that we see here..”I got burnt by a dodgy SEO company and I’m not happy!”

The thing is, most business owners are scrambling to race to the bottom, making decisions based upon price alone, and that’s dangerous.

I will say however, that what you might interpret as being “expensive” is well affordable for others.

If a business owner is investing $3,000 per month, and each lead is potentially worth $2,500, and I’ve increased those leads by 410% over an 8 month period, then wouldn’t you agree that’s a worthwhile investment?

Of course it is.

[Byron Trzeciak]

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John Romaine, post: 199818 wrote:

I can tell you anything less than $1,000 per month is going to be absolute rubbish.

I don’t agree with the statement above but I understand your point, my cheapest package is $750 per month and I believe I can add value to businesses at that price.

Take a look at this survey for example of 600+ responses.

http://moz.com/blog/seo-pricing-costs-of-services

Hourly SEO Costs Vary Across Countries, but $76-$200/hour is Most Common

With the exception of India SEO experts charge between 75 – 200 per hour. Let’s take 100 per hour as an example. If you’re charging 750 per month expect to get around 7.5 hours of work. My SEO audit alone can take upwards of 5 hours because of the detail and comprehensive analysis of your website.

My onsite optimisation can take up to 10 hours on average, but it greatly depends on the size of the website and this is what John is getting at. SEO Audit is 5 hours plus onsite optimisation can be 5 – 15 hours or more, it depends entirely on the size of the website.

However SEO and “optimisation” is just one part of it though if you’re getting quality SEO services.

Pure “SEO” consultants/agencies may be fading as broader “inbound marketing” services firms (offering SEO, social, content, conversion, analytics, etc) rise. The data showed 150 respondents (25%) saying they were primarily focused on SEO while a slightly greater number, 160 (26.7%), offered a broader range.

The lines are blurred. It’s no longer about ranking quickly but instead it’s about long term strategies based around content development, social media marketing and conversion optimisation. These skillsets are all under the “SEO” umbrella these days for quality services that aren’t going to burn you and can actually provide a return on investment.

Take a look at the numbers even at the lowest average price point:

– $100 p.m at $75 per hour equals 1.3 hours of work
– $300 p.m at $75 per hour equals 4 hours of work.
– $500 p.m at $75 per hour equals 6 hours of work.

If this is the time you’re sinking into client campaigns then I question what work is actually being done. This question is asked time and time again on flying solo “can you tell me what my seo agency is doing” and on review there is literally nothing being done except for damaging and “automated” blasting of your website across the web.

[John Romaine]

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Byron Trzeciak, post: 199819 wrote:

I believe I can add value to businesses at that price.

[bb1]

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John R

I am not going to quote specific points in your reply, or highlight my answers, just to answer a couple of your points.

Yes I did listen to the Podcast from beginning to end, the whole 1hr and 4 mins, time in my life I will never get back. I dont make statements like I did without first listening or reading the whole document.

You ask me somewhere what is my point. My point is that you don’t choose an SEO business purely because of the price they charge, which was the basic essence behind your podcast, sure you and Byron threw in a few other bits and pieces, But the main story was Dodgy is cheap, Good is expensive.

You may or may not be the best SEO guru running around, I dont know, and I wasnt having a go at your prices, if you are offering a quality service and not just words than it is most likely a fair price. The question is does a 1500 or 2000 dollar a month cost give you good SEO. Which is what your podcast implied to the average small business person out there that most likely doesnt have much idea.

My answer to that business person is NO, a $1500 price tag does NOT guarantee you good SEO. I could set up an SEO business (BB1 SEO sounds interesting) and charge 1500 a month and do exactly the same (or less) than a $299 cowboy. PRICE alone doesnt Guarantee quality. When I setup my SEO company I can offer some cast iron guarantee for their 1500 a month, they will get absolutely no improvement from my efforts, accept a lighter bank balance.

The point to small business is don’t just look at price, ask for referals, ask to look at past work, do due dilligence, dont select SEO based on price alone, there are cowboys charging 1500 just as much as there are some excellent companies charging less than that.

[bb1]

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Byron Trzeciak, post: 199819 wrote:

I don’t agree with the statement above but I understand your point, my cheapest package is $750 per month and I believe I can add value to businesses at that price.

Take a look at this survey for example of 600+ responses.

http://moz.com/blog/seo-pricing-costs-of-services

With the exception of India SEO experts charge between 75 – 200 per hour. Let’s take 100 per hour as an example. If you’re charging 750 per month expect to get around 7.5 hours of work. My SEO audit alone can take upwards of 5 hours because of the detail and comprehensive analysis of your website.

My onsite optimisation can take up to 10 hours on average, but it greatly depends on the size of the website and this is what John is getting at. SEO Audit is 5 hours plus onsite optimisation can be 5 – 15 hours or more, it depends entirely on the size of the website.

However SEO and “optimisation” is just one part of it though if you’re getting quality SEO services.

The lines are blurred. It’s no longer about ranking quickly but instead it’s about long term strategies based around content development, social media marketing and conversion optimisation. These skillsets are all under the “SEO” umbrella these days for quality services that aren’t going to burn you and can actually provide a return on investment.

Take a look at the numbers even at the lowest average price point:

– $100 p.m at $75 per hour equals 1.3 hours of work
– $300 p.m at $75 per hour equals 4 hours of work.
– $500 p.m at $75 per hour equals 6 hours of work.

If this is the time you’re sinking into client campaigns then I question what work is actually being done. This question is asked time and time again on flying solo “can you tell me what my seo agency is doing” and on review there is literally nothing being done except for damaging and “automated” blasting of your website across the web.

Byron, All good points.

The problem is the client doesnt know or see this, if they get there garden done they can see what has been done, what hasnt been done, often how long someone has been onsite. With SEO they see nothing accept a couple of reports and maybe some additional traffic to their website, oh and that page 1 ranking which SEO companies always promise.

Don’t get me wrong the charges are valid and correct, its just we are focusing on price. Price does not and never will guarantee quality.

It comes down to how SEO market themselves, at the moment most small business first contact with an SEO company is via a cold call saying that there website could rank higher if you sign up with me. I get them everyweek, even though my website already ranks page 1 for the search terms I want it to rank for, and has never had SEO applied, does not have a Blog and ha had no updates for about 3 years. Does that make me a SEO guru, no way known, I’ll stick to my current job. But if I advertised my services showed them my webpages ranking, than I could theoretically charge 1500, I would still be a cowboy.

Price alone does not make good SEO.

[bb1]

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Funny just finished typing that and what appears in my inbox nd SEO email.

“Be found online with keywords & services of your choice!

Upgrade your current website Google listing to a first page position.”

Yep, another one offering first page position, now I bet every similiar business to mine in the area recieved the same email, if we all took up this offer, it would be interesting, because I can just see one big problem. We wont all fit on page 1.

[Byron Trzeciak]

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bb1, post: 199822 wrote:

Byron, All good points.

The problem is the client doesnt know or see this, if they get there garden done they can see what has been done, what hasnt been done, often how long someone has been onsite. With SEO they see nothing accept a couple of reports and maybe some additional traffic to their website, oh and that page 1 ranking which SEO companies always promise.

Again, you’re talking about dodgy SEO services. Are you claiming they’re all dodgy regardless of price point?

If you’re only seeing a number #1 ranking for little to no work conducted on your website then I would be asking questions about what was done, even though the damage has likely already occurred. 9/10 websites I work with require:

• significant on-page SEO
• need help with the copy of their service pages to correctly address the questions their visitors want answered.
• need help to create and generate content for their blogs
• need help to syndicate content across social media websites
• need help creating stronger call to actions

This is all highly visible.

bb1, post: 199822 wrote:

Don’t get me wrong the charges are valid and correct, its just we are focusing on price. Price does not and never will guarantee quality.

I agree, price doesn’t guarantee quality. I could turn around and charge my services for 100p.m tomorrow and that doesn’t mean they’re crap it just means that I’m wasting my time.

bb1, post: 199822 wrote:

It comes down to how SEO market themselves, at the moment most small business first contact with an SEO company is via a cold call saying that there website could rank higher if you sign up with me.

Wrong, again you’re talking about dodgy SEO. Not one of my client’s has been generated doing it this way. Business owners need to understand this and ignore cold “spam” emails.

bb1, post: 199822 wrote:

I get them everyweek, even though my website already ranks page 1 for the search terms I want it to rank for, and has never had SEO applied, does not have a Blog and ha had no updates for about 3 years. Does that make me a SEO guru, no way known, I’ll stick to my current job. But if I advertised my services showed them my webpages ranking, than I could theoretically charge 1500, I would still be a cowboy.

Price alone does not make good SEO.

I’ve got client’s that all i’ve done is build their website, no content in terms of blogging, and they’re ranking on 10 or more keywords on the first page. That just means you’re likely in a less competitive industry or you’re going over “long tail” keywords which are less competitive.

It’s what we’ve all been saying on here, on-site optimisation can make a huge difference and unfortunately the majority of websites I see have poor website structure and thin content which means it’s unlikely to see any results and you’ve wasted your money with the web design.

I get your point, high price tags don’t equal quality, seen as though you did listen all the way through the podcast you would have heard this

Byron: Yeah, exactly. Well, nobody wants to overpay either. I mean, I know Web design – you can still overpay in Web design and get a bad Web site so just because you’ve got a high price tag that definitely doesn’t justify quality SEO services either.

John: No.

Byron: Just as much as low services don’t necessarily – they don’t necessarily mean that they’re bad SEO maybe just somebody’s pricing themselves really low, who knows, but, yeah, price is not a single factor to determine whether something’s good or bad.

John: No it’s not and you’re exactly right because I’ve worked with clients, in fact I’ve got a couple now that have come to me and said look, we were paying $4000 a month and we got nothing and I’m working with another one. We were paying $2000 a month and our site got penalized. So, yeah, unfortunately I wish I could say differently but it’s not always the case if you get what you pay for.

[Aidan]

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<2cents>

I’m going to chime in here and say every case is different.

What the SEO guy does will depend on the situation and what is required. If it means many hours of research and audit just to get to the start point then that time has to be paid for.

If he is to provide the copy, then that too has to be paid for. Is he providing input on design for conversion optimisation? Maybe he is even responsible for the entire site design? Ditto with paying for that too.

Are there particular keywords that are targeted? Many clients and agencies still do that for various reasons despite everyone understanding the real goal is traffic and conversions… that effort has to be paid for too.

I do all that stuff and more, usually on a whitelabel basis behind web designers or digital marketing agencies…

On the other hand I have a direct client who is very good at design and copy and she is very interested in, and quite knowledgeable on SEO. In her case I act only as the ‘director’ spending just a couple of hours a month on ‘review and instruct’ SEO activity.

I don’t charge her like I charge the others!

The point is – SEO services vary, they vary a lot.

There is no point arguing what is high or low, good or bad, without looking at what is actually needed and provided.

[MatthewKeath]

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But isn’t SEO dead?

That’s what some guy on Facebook said the other day.

Hey guys I am joking please don’t crucify me

[JohnW]

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Byron Trzeciak, post: 199802 wrote:

There are no quick wins with SEO anymore and therefore if you’re looking to achieve first page rankings, for competitive terms, with minimal effort then be ready to receive a penalty from Google for doing so.
Hi Byron,
We are not disagreeing but I thought some folk may misinterpret the SEO speed issue.

I’d like to provide a little more info on how long it can take to see the impact of SEO implementation.

Sometimes large benefits can start to become apparent in weeks.

How quickly you can start to see benefits depends on the nature of the problem.

The Google robot usually updates its copy of a site’s Home page about once per week. “Main” site pages may be nearly as quick. Deeper pages may take a month or more.

If you have a problem with important information that has been omitted from your site’s Home page and you add it, you may start to see the change benefits being reported in your Analytics reports in 3-4 weeks.

If, on the other hand your site has been slapped with a Google manual penalty for dodgy link building tactics, you might wait 6 months or more for Google to update this element of its index.

In my experience, most SE referrals are lost because site owners don’t provide important information that potential customers are seeking.

To check this, I randomly assessed 4 old Flying Solo website review requests. All 4 suffered from content omission problems.

1. A Service business – No pages about the different applications of the service
2. A photography service – Not targeting searches that include the city where it is located
3. A service business – No client example pages means it will also lose a lot of industry usage searchers
4. A national directory site – No location search targeting

IMHO, in the small business market it seems there are still many “quick wins” to be found but look for them to occur in situations where you can control your onsite information.
Regs,
JohnW

[Author]

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