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  • #1205491
    adam_m
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    JohnTranter, post: 244627, member: 20554 wrote:
    That’s been an issue since graphic designers started using Dreamweaver to churn out hideously coded websites. They haven’t lowered the bar, they’ve just added to the amount you can do with minimal knowledge.

    My main issue with Web Designers calling themselves Web Developers is that I occasionally get a request for a logo or a page mockup.
    People get confused and assume one is the same as the other :)

    This is true, web designers and web developers are quite different.
    Basically left brain v right brain … cant get much different.

    Back in my Dreamweaver days, over 10 yrs ago now, i was forced to attain a competent level of HTML/CSS because the elearning courses I was designing had to be ‘standards compliant’ and 100% level 3 accessible , all 2000 pages of each course.

    Hours spent running pages through the https://validator.w3.org/ checker, and also the ‘Accessibility checking software’ (basically a 508 checker http://www.508checker.com/) which kind of went hand in hand.
    We developed the very first ‘keyboard accessible’ menu probably 12 yrs ago.

    #1205492
    adam_m
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    Also using ‘Flash’ quite a lot, I had to learn quite a bit of action script :(

    #1205493
    Simon at SEOm
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    JohnTranter, post: 244627, member: 20554 wrote:
    That’s been an issue since graphic designers started using Dreamweaver to churn out hideously coded websites. They haven’t lowered the bar, they’ve just added to the amount you can do with minimal knowledge.

    Haha, very true! I started in Dreamweaver, looking back I see how poor it was to use but it was the only thing I knew. Dreamweaver and tables *shuddder*

    #1205494
    adam_m
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    Simon at SEOm, post: 244643, member: 89455 wrote:
    Haha, very true! I started in Dreamweaver, looking back I see how poor it was to use but it was the only thing I knew. Dreamweaver and tables *shuddder*

    The good thing about Dreamweaver was its ability to use ‘templates’.
    So if you needed to make an update, to say, a banner or a navigation system, you could update hundreds of pages, that were based on that template, easily.

    Dreamweaver is still about and much more advanced than what it was, but havent touched it in years.

    #1205495
    JohnTranter
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    Simon at SEOm, post: 244643, member: 89455 wrote:
    Dreamweaver and tables *shuddder*

    And the single pixel spacer.gif image, to help space out content. (and thousands of   for text layout )

    If you didn’t have at least 5 nested tables, you weren’t trying hard enough.

    To be fair, flexbox is finally adding back some functionality we lost when we stopped using tables. (Or maybe we have just gone full circle!)

    #1205496
    adam_m
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    JohnTranter, post: 244662, member: 20554 wrote:
    And the single pixel spacer.gif image, to help space out content. (and thousands of   for text layout )

    If you didn’t have at least 5 nested tables, you weren’t trying hard enough.

    To be fair, flexbox is finally adding back some functionality we lost when we stopped using tables. (Or maybe we have just gone full circle!)

    lol … obviously you wernt terribly proficient and like every ‘coder’ i came across, didn’t give dreamweaver a chance because ‘note pad’ was so much better.

    All that you mentioned above is something i would expect from a ‘noob’

    #1205497
    adam_m
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    I churned out thousands of pages of ‘standards compliant and accessible’ Dreamweaver coded pages quite successfully. In fact, I used it for e-learning courses which were heavily scruitinised by ‘coders’ because of the high standards required by the Universities.

    It was the ‘industry standard’ of the day.

    #1205498
    Greg_M
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    Simon at SEOm, post: 244607, member: 89455 wrote:
    I feel like the influx in the last decade of so called “web developers” are due to the platforms like WordPress, Shopify, Squarespace and so on. These systems are built and designed so that a website was now within the reach of small startups and businesses without the capital to afford a custom built site, those platforms are perfect for those people.

    But then you get some that do it and realise how easy it was to put together and think “well I can do this for other people and charge”. That’s fine because generally they’re cheap, but when it comes to custom website functionality, well they’re bound by plugins and have no real knowledge of how the website is actually working.

    Sure, you’re going to get some rubbish ‘professionals’, but there are also amazing ones out there that can deliver custom built websites, that are fast, secure and built to perform for SEO. It’s just a matter of finding those developers and that’s the hard part!

    In a general sense I agree with you 100%, but I wouldn’t dismiss the ability of some of them to write custom functionality…Squarespace is one I’ve had a bit to do with, if you go to their developer pages and have a close look at what’s available you’ll find it goes way beyond drag and drop if you want it to. All without the hassle of maintenance and hosting…Shopify is similar in many ways, but like Squarespace you need to drill down into the developer offerings.

    I’ve noticed lately some serious businesses openly promoting the fact that they use these platforms and developing fully customised solutions for clients wanting to use them.

    The big appeal to clients is usually very intuitive admin interfaces for their day to day work flow, plus the ability to never think about any backend maintenance.

    #1205499
    Greg_M
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    JohnTranter, post: 244662, member: 20554 wrote:
    And the single pixel spacer.gif image, to help space out content. (and thousands of   for text layout )

    If you didn’t have at least 5 nested tables, you weren’t trying hard enough.

    To be fair, flexbox is finally adding back some functionality we lost when we stopped using tables. (Or maybe we have just gone full circle!)

    [USER=20554]@JohnTranter[/USER] I’ve noticed you seem to manage all this quite well for a noob using Notepad.

    Cheers

    #1205500
    talart
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    Put my own WordPress Websites together, they work and are sufficient for the current growth stage of my App Business. Did as much research as could be expected over 2-3 years, spoke with Web Designers what ever title you want to call them decided to do it myself rather than spend any money before I knew exactly what i wanted.

    The money is coming in, have a web presence and all is working well. My market still has a significant face to face sale market. There are many individual differences amongst small/solo trader businesses. As long as mine is working that is all that matters.

    #1205501
    JohnTranter
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    adam_m wrote:
    All that you mentioned above is something i would expect from a ‘noob’

    I guess I was a noob in 97/98. But then spacer.gifs were pretty standard then, and nested tables.

    adam_m, post: 244715, member: 66794 wrote:
    lol … obviously you wernt terribly proficient and like every ‘coder’ i came across, didn’t give dreamweaver a chance because ‘note pad’ was so much better.

    I never used Dreamweaver, I was just dealing with the HTML sent to me by design agencies that needed to be ‘made dynamic’ (fed from a database) or integrated with our e-commerce system.
    Sorry, but the code that we were sent was shocking and it certainly wasn’t compliant, we had to quote a day’s worth of work just to clean up the HTML.
    This was in 98/99 so I’ve no idea if it was the user or Dreamweaver, but I’ll stand by my statement “graphic designers started using Dreamweaver to churn out hideously coded websites”

    adam_m wrote:
    I churned out thousands of pages of ‘standards compliant and accessible’ Dreamweaver coded pages quite successfully. In fact, I used it for e-learning courses which were heavily scruitinised by ‘coders’ because of the high standards required by the Universities.

    You want a cookie?

    #1205502
    JohnTranter
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    Greg_M, post: 244720, member: 38207 wrote:
    [USER=20554]@JohnTranter[/USER] I’ve noticed you seem to manage all this quite well for a noob using Notepad.

    It’s hard to keep track of all the nested tables when you don’t have syntax highlighting. But it’s good training for my brain.

    #1205503
    adam_m
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    • Total posts: 114
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    talart, post: 244725, member: 85074 wrote:
    Put my own WordPress Websites together, they work and are sufficient for the current growth stage of my App Business. Did as much research as could be expected over 2-3 years, spoke with Web Designers what ever title you want to call them decided to do it myself rather than spend any money before I knew exactly what i wanted.

    The money is coming in, have a web presence and all is working well. My market still has a significant face to face sale market. There are many individual differences amongst small/solo trader businesses. As long as mine is working that is all that matters.

    Well done mate … Just be aware how vulnerable ‘wordpress’ (and other content management) based sites can be with certain plugins, and keep it constantly updated and backed up.

    For people who just want a basic site, without plugins, I would recommend just using a HTML5 Template. Something like html5up.net

    What sort of Apps do you make ?

    #1205504
    adam_m
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    • Total posts: 114
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    JohnTranter, post: 244728, member: 20554 wrote:
    I guess I was a noob in 97/98. But then spacer.gifs were pretty standard then, and nested tables.

    I never used Dreamweaver, I was just dealing with the HTML sent to me by design agencies that needed to be ‘made dynamic’ (fed from a database) or integrated with our e-commerce system.
    Sorry, but the code that we were sent was shocking and it certainly wasn’t compliant, we had to quote a day’s worth of work just to clean up the HTML.
    This was in 98/99 so I’ve no idea if it was the user or Dreamweaver, but I’ll stand by my statement “graphic designers started using Dreamweaver to churn out hideously coded websites”

    You want a cookie?

    Ah, ok well I guess it wasnt Dreamweaver to blame, just some i’ll equipped, poorly trained Dreamweaver users. Its not just designers that produce bad code. Probably best not to ‘put down a program’ you have never used aye? People using nested tables and spacers were just ‘Hacks’
    For those in the know it wasnt just about ‘nested tables’, it was more about using and animating layers. Well, I didnt do a lot of layer animation but it was possible, and used to good effect in certain circumstances. And using Dreamweaver’s Template and database capabilities.

    All the HTML5 animation effects were possible 15 years ago with Dreamweaver.

    I mainly used Flash for the Animation work I was involved in.

    Nope, no cookies for me, Im watching my weight.

    #1205505
    adam_m
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    Hey John, talking about crap code … you did the templates for the
    PARLOUR X website that you gave as an example of your work on your site ?

    Ah, the code validator says noooooooooo …. lol
    https://validator.w3.org/nu/?doc=http://www.parlourx.com/

    XkU4Ajf.png

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