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  • #991019
    checkvault
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    I’d like to finally ask this question to anyone who reads this. Would you start work for someone just because you need work to do. Knowing full well that the client may not have funds to pay you in the end and then getting that money would be an arduous and stressful task.

    I want to know why. Is it because –

    • that it secures a future payment which may or may not happen but at least you’re entitled to ask for it instead of someone else.
    • to maintain a relationship and to stay in the good books thus securing a job that may come up in the future?
    • or another reason I’m not aware of

    My question is because we run a system where we allow people to secure the payments for the work they’re doing before they start the work. Although it has worked wonders for some of our clients, I still see cases where people have started the work without this protection which is why I felt like asking this question.

    Any input would be tremendously valuable.

    Thank you.

    #1179588
    ThexArm
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    Re: Would you work for someone who may not have money to pay you because you need wor

    Just wondering if the client doesn’t have money to pay how your service is going to protect the payment? If I understand correctly you collect the money from the client prior to the job is started and release it when the job is finished. Is that correct?

    People do provide services free of charge in the early days of their business to build up reputation and word of mouth referrals. And when the clients business start to make money they do get paid for their services. That is contingent.

    #1179589
    checkvault
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    Re: Would you work for someone who may not have money to pay you because you need wor

    ThexArm, post: 209369 wrote:
    Just wondering if the client doesn’t have money to pay how your service is going to protect the payment? If I understand correctly you collect the money from the client prior to the job is started and release it when the job is finished. Is that correct?

    People do provide services free of charge in the early days of their business to build up reputation and word of mouth referrals. And when the clients business start to make money they do get paid for their services. That is contingent.

    Yes, one should consider their interests before doing the work in terms of payment and yes, that’s certainly what we do in our business. We hold the money for businesses whilst the work is in progress, and then release it on completion.

    But even with this tool which we offer at no charge, we still find people who start work, and then afterwards complain that their client is not paying on time.

    There was nearly $6.24b in 2013-4 which was not paid by businesses. So you can see that businesses are taking up work which they can’t pay for and hence one should be even more hesitant before starting work for someone without being secured.

    So that’s why I’ve asked the question. I do understand that when you enter the business world you want to make an impression. But you need to value your work for others to value it as well. So give a discount at the start, but why offer your services for free? And on top of that, why unsecured?

    #1179590
    ThexArm
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    Re: Would you work for someone who may not have money to pay you because you need wor

    It is called goodwill.

    It is not necessary that you value your service any less that you provide it for free. You provide the same level of service but your provide it for free because it is marketing. So, in your books you can show that as marketing expense if you feel your service is not being valued.

    I do understand your point though.

    Have you heard of barter card?

    #1179591
    checkvault
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    Re: Would you work for someone who may not have money to pay you because you need wor

    ThexArm, post: 209372 wrote:
    It is called goodwill.

    It is not necessary that you value your service any less that you provide it for free. You provide the same level of service but your provide it for free because it is marketing. So, in your books you can show that as marketing expense if you feel your service is not being valued.

    I do understand your point though.

    Have you heard of barter card?

    Yea I just saw Bartercard. To meet it’s essentially a marketplace where you can exchange your services/products for someone else’s services or products in order to lower your expenses.

    It’s up to the business to chose what sort of remuneration they’re after. For most businesses it’s cash, but options like bartercard introduces another currency of exchange. But the main point is securing that remuneration.

    The same can apply here. I offer my services in exchange for a product on bartercard. But I haven’t secured it. Next minute I realise that this company has gone insolvent and it’s assets liquidated. I can’t apply as a creditor as I won’t have an invoice. And even if I did, 97% of the unsecured creditors get hardly 11 cents per dollar they’re owed. 93% get absolutely nothing. (ASIC report on corporate insolvencies 2013-2014)

    So yes, it’s a good alternative for remuneration and lowering your expenses using your services/products, but in the end it does not solve the problem of whether you’re going to get remunerated on time or at all.

    #1179592
    MatthewKeath
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    Re: Would you work for someone who may not have money to pay you because you need wor

    checkvault, post: 209367 wrote:
    I’d like to finally ask this question to anyone who reads this. Would you start work for someone just because you need work to do. Knowing full well that the client may not have funds to pay you in the end and then getting that money would be an arduous and stressful task.

    I want to know why. Is it because –

    • that it secures a future payment which may or may not happen but at least you’re entitled to ask for it instead of someone else.
    • to maintain a relationship and to stay in the good books thus securing a job that may come up in the future?
    • or another reason I’m not aware of

    My question is because we run a system where we allow people to secure the payments for the work they’re doing before they start the work. Although it has worked wonders for some of our clients, I still see cases where people have started the work without this protection which is why I felt like asking this question.

    Any input would be tremendously valuable.

    Thank you.Hi Mate what is your best email and phone? I would like to introduce you to some people who you may be able to do business with.

    #1179593
    checkvault
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    Re: Would you work for someone who may not have money to pay you because you need wor

    MatthewKeath, post: 209387 wrote:
    Hi Mate what is your best email and phone? I would like to introduce you to some people who you may be able to do business with.

    Hi Matthew,

    My email address is [email protected] and my number in the office is 02 8599 1512.

    Always happy to have a discussion.

    Thanks,

    Prathamesh.

    #1179594
    bb1
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    Re: Would you work for someone who may not have money to pay you because you need wor

    To answer your actual question, no I wouldtnt do work for people if I knew up front that they may not pay. I would either run a mile, or ask for a 100% deposit (which I know they cant pay, thus not get the job).

    But I have known people who have done it, if they had spare time and there was no real cost (as in materials etc), beside time to there own business.

    They have seen it as a basis for getting referals, experience or just getting there business out there. So I wouldnt but some would.

    #1179595
    checkvault
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    Re: Would you work for someone who may not have money to pay you because you need wor

    bb1, post: 209390 wrote:
    To answer your actual question, no I wouldtnt do work for people if I knew up front that they may not pay. I would either run a mile, or ask for a 100% deposit (which I know they cant pay, thus not get the job).

    But I have known people who have done it, if they had spare time and there was no real cost (as in materials etc), beside time to there own business.

    They have seen it as a basis for getting referals, experience or just getting there business out there. So I wouldnt but some would.

    Firstly, I’d like to compliment the quote in your signature. So very true indeed!

    For people who are starting out, I guess you can incorporate a little bit of risk in return for referrals, experience and exposure. And you’re also right that in most cases, this can be seen where there’s no upfront cost.

    But in that case, one has to certainly make sure it doesn’t form a habit. Unless you have another source of income. The scariest is when people who are self employed, have dependent families and get into jobs which sting them afterwards. It’s a whole week done doing the work and then the next month chasing up the payment for the work. It’s just a worrisome thought.

    Thanks for your input.

    #1179596
    Johny
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    Re: Would you work for someone who may not have money to pay you because you need wor

    I can see the benefits on something like this as it is akin to a free escrow service. The problem with many escrow type services is that they usually tend to favour one party over the other. So as long as both parties have equal recourse I think there is merit. By equal recourse I mean that it is one thing for the supplier to be protected in getting their payment once the job is done, but there is also a need for the customer to be guaranteed the payment is not made until they are satisfied with the work completed.

    Also, one of the other issues with an escrow service is that it ties up the money for the life of the job. If it is a large deal where there may be progressive payments needed to meet cashflow, this can cause a problem. In my business it is a major obstacle to suppliers using an escrow service.

    What puts me off, other than the heading is this:-

    Knowing full well that the client may not have funds to pay you in the end and then getting that money would be an arduous and stressful task.

    It’s a sad day when we are automatically to assume the worst about the people we intend to do business with. I suggest we don’t “know full well” anything. That to me makes this an advertisement not a commentary on the usefulness of the service.

    I say this knowing full well I MAY get hit by a bus tomorrow.

    #1179597
    checkvault
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    Re: Would you work for someone who may not have money to pay you because you need wor

    Johny, post: 209556 wrote:
    I can see the benefits on something like this as it is akin to a free escrow service. The problem with many escrow type services is that they usually tend to favour one party over the other. So as long as both parties have equal recourse I think there is merit. By equal recourse I mean that it is one thing for the supplier to be protected in getting their payment once the job is done, but there is also a need for the customer to be guaranteed the payment is not made until they are satisfied with the work completed.

    Also, one of the other issues with an escrow service is that it ties up the money for the life of the job. If it is a large deal where there may be progressive payments needed to meet cashflow, this can cause a problem. In my business it is a major obstacle to suppliers using an escrow service.

    What puts me off, other than the heading is this:-

    It’s a sad day when we are automatically to assume the worst about the people we intend to do business with. I suggest we don’t “know full well” anything. That to me makes this an advertisement not a commentary on the usefulness of the service.

    I say this knowing full well I MAY get hit by a bus tomorrow.

    Hi Johny,

    By saying what I did, I was not implying that every business we deal with is not going to have money to pay. But it only takes one of them to go insolvent or delay payments for the business providing the service/products to experience problems with cash-flow. Account payables should always be paid on time. So shouldn’t our account receivables be the same ? We only hope that our trust and relationship with the client will ensure that it ‘may’ never happen to us.

    Escrow services should not favour one party over the other. CheckVault certainly doesn’t. We only release the money after both parties are satisfied with the release. The seller is secure knowing that the client has sufficient funds to pay and hence does not run the risk of late payment. And the buyer knows that the funds will not be released, until the work is completely properly and is authorised. So it’s favourable for both parties.

    And when it comes to large jobs, CheckVault allows buyers to secure and release in milestones so it does not put pressure on the cash-flow for sellers and is also a benefit for buyers who may not always have the entire amount available to put into escrow, but do over the length of the job.

    Being a member of the team at CheckVault and having seen and heard about so many businesses, their people with their families go under pressure, I am passionate about the product we offer and want to make more and more people know about it. And I feel forums like Flying Solo are a good place to share what we do.

    And I understand your input Johny –

    Apart from my work here, I also run my own business and most of my clients are absolutely wonderful. So once again, what I said isn’t for most of the people we do business with. But with the knowledge that there are businesses that have failed because of this , it’s only in our best interest to be alert and secure.

    #1179598
    LucasArthur
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    Re: Would you work for someone who may not have money to pay you because you need wor

    Hi,

    Have been reading this post along with a few other checkvault skewed posts, from checkvault, all of which are intriguing. They are to the point, talking about protecting your money and wasnt really going to contribute as i felt each has really been thought provoking for the pure benefit of driving ‘business’ to checkvaults platform.

    In saying this, i believe there is merit in the offering of a service provider in this space although am not a fan of posts akin to a scare monger. The best tactic to educate people on this type of subject would not be to say ‘would you work for someone that has no money’ but ‘how would you protect yourself to ensure you get paid’ which is the same story but different slants – potentially.

    Prathamesh, i am certainly not openly chastising you or your service as i say i think there is a valuable resource here.. Although many would overlook a clear bait tactic in negative thought placements to enlist business.. well this is how i read it.

    Tactics of scaring people into becoming clients is an area that is commonly used by services in the financial spectrum with intangible products.. Often, they try to make them tangible with little success and tend to revert to scare tactics.. Areas commonly associated fit the bill of financial planners, insurance agents, etc etc who commonly play the devils advocate of ‘what would your wife do if you died tomorrow, how would she pay the bills or the mortgage’ after discussing life insurance.

    Also, from a numbers perspective and analysis of most financial figures on the planet almost all and any can be skewed enough to scare anyone into action in the hands of the right party. Example is a big 4 bank at the moment is suggesting they support small business and are lending over $1Billion (there target) to help small business – whilst this is true, the fact is that they have already and do already lend this level of money as it is – so truly they are not offering anything new, just skewing the facts and figures in their favor – albeit a marketing example and not using it negatively as is the case in point.

    Just not a fan of the method behind the thought provocation you are endeavouring to invoke.. Hope that makes sense?

    Although i find the service a pretty good offering, including its free nature and checkvault covers overheads via interest earnt from the monies held, my biggest struggle would be with asking clients to park their money and to trust a third party until project is concluded. This could potentially create a confrontational aspect to the relationship prior to you even starting, a conversation you will need to overcome before even getting the work..

    Just appears to be another battle in order to get a sale or a deal across the line, and although the stats are massive in volume and $, i am interested in knowing total transactions conducted throughout the period with the amount not honoured..

    Anyways, sorry i got distracted.. Seems to be a good service although could place yet another barrier in front of a potential client giving them a reason not to go with someone… i know the rebuttal will be ‘but dont you want to protect your money?’ with a resounding yes (although everyone will answer this, of which the service really has no bearing on this answer).

    Hope this reply is taken for its message, as i dont want to rock the boat at all.. just encourage a different approach. However, i am intrigued at how one would overcome asking their client to place money in escrow before a job has commenced? and how comfortable some would be to even ask this of their clients?

    Cheers
    Jason

    Jason Ramage | Lucas Arthur Pty Ltd | E: [email protected]   P: 61 3 8324 0344    M: 61 412 244 888
    #1179599
    checkvault
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    Re: Would you work for someone who may not have money to pay you because you need wor

    HarryLuke Logistics, post: 209642 wrote:
    Hi,

    Have been reading this post along with a few other checkvault skewed posts, from checkvault, all of which are intriguing. They are to the point, talking about protecting your money and wasnt really going to contribute as i felt each has really been thought provoking for the pure benefit of driving ‘business’ to checkvaults platform.

    In saying this, i believe there is merit in the offering of a service provider in this space although am not a fan of posts akin to a scare monger. The best tactic to educate people on this type of subject would not be to say ‘would you work for someone that has no money’ but ‘how would you protect yourself to ensure you get paid’ which is the same story but different slants – potentially.

    Prathamesh, i am certainly not openly chastising you or your service as i say i think there is a valuable resource here.. Although many would overlook a clear bait tactic in negative thought placements to enlist business.. well this is how i read it.

    Tactics of scaring people into becoming clients is an area that is commonly used by services in the financial spectrum with intangible products.. Often, they try to make them tangible with little success and tend to revert to scare tactics.. Areas commonly associated fit the bill of financial planners, insurance agents, etc etc who commonly play the devils advocate of ‘what would your wife do if you died tomorrow, how would she pay the bills or the mortgage’ after discussing life insurance.

    Also, from a numbers perspective and analysis of most financial figures on the planet almost all and any can be skewed enough to scare anyone into action in the hands of the right party. Example is a big 4 bank at the moment is suggesting they support small business and are lending over $1Billion (there target) to help small business – whilst this is true, the fact is that they have already and do already lend this level of money as it is – so truly they are not offering anything new, just skewing the facts and figures in their favor – albeit a marketing example and not using it negatively as is the case in point.

    Just not a fan of the method behind the thought provocation you are endeavouring to invoke.. Hope that makes sense?

    Although i find the service a pretty good offering, including its free nature and checkvault covers overheads via interest earnt from the monies held, my biggest struggle would be with asking clients to park their money and to trust a third party until project is concluded. This could potentially create a confrontational aspect to the relationship prior to you even starting, a conversation you will need to overcome before even getting the work..

    Just appears to be another battle in order to get a sale or a deal across the line, and although the stats are massive in volume and $, i am interested in knowing total transactions conducted throughout the period with the amount not honoured..

    Anyways, sorry i got distracted.. Seems to be a good service although could place yet another barrier in front of a potential client giving them a reason not to go with someone… i know the rebuttal will be ‘but dont you want to protect your money?’ with a resounding yes (although everyone will answer this, of which the service really has no bearing on this answer).

    Hope this reply is taken for its message, as i dont want to rock the boat at all.. just encourage a different approach. However, i am intrigued at how one would overcome asking their client to place money in escrow before a job has commenced? and how comfortable some would be to even ask this of their clients?

    Cheers
    Jason

    Hi Jason,

    It’s quite interesting that you write this because I myself realised that I’m talking about a service the negative way around. So I had already started writing my next blog article ensuring that I take a different approach and have named it ‘the happy way to do business’. It’s not done yet. But once it’s done, it won’t be like the others.

    I joined the company as a software developer and as I’ve worked here, I’ve also started writing about what I do and the product itself to increase awareness and generate feedback. And I have received a lot of feedback, and I’d like to thank everyone for it. But I guess my lack of experience in the writing space took me down the wrong path of approaching how to write about a topic. I have seen the ad by the big bank. That is a good example.

    The hurdles which you mentioned in your post are certainly some which we experience with most people – the most important one being where the seller is asking the buyer to secure funds into a system before work has commenced.

    But then this goes back to the main question I asked at the start of the thread. Another member had a line in their signature which I really liked. Somewhere on the lines of – asking the hard questions will save you $.

    But I’ve seen in other articles and also experienced how the question of money is always an uncomfortable topic even after the work has finished. But without going too much into that (staying with the positive approach), we have learnt from experiences over the years and provide resources and training to our sellers on the system so that they can best explain how the system works and how it is beneficial to both of them and their client.

    I like how you mentioned that this may introduce another hurdle in getting a sale across the line. One way we solved that problem is by introducing the discount feature where the seller can offer his/her service at a lower price by factoring in that they won’t need to chase it afterwards thus saving time and money. So they can incentivise the sale by offering a lower price.

    The answers to most of your questions, you’ll find on our frequently asked questions page – https://www.checkvault.com.au/frequently-asked-questions/.

    I am still learning so I am open to criticism and disciplining in terms of writing. So if you ever feel that I may be stepping over a line please don’t hesitate to make me aware of it.

    Thanks.

    #1179600
    LucasArthur
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    Re: Would you work for someone who may not have money to pay you because you need wor

    checkvault, post: 209646 wrote:
    Hi Jason,

    It’s quite interesting that you write this because I myself realised that I’m talking about a service the negative way around. So I had already started writing my next blog article ensuring that I take a different approach and have named it ‘the happy way to do business’. It’s not done yet. But once it’s done, it won’t be like the others.

    I joined the company as a software developer and as I’ve worked here, I’ve also started writing about what I do and the product itself to increase awareness and generate feedback. And I have received a lot of feedback, and I’d like to thank everyone for it. But I guess my lack of experience in the writing space took me down the wrong path of approaching how to write about a topic. I have seen the ad by the big bank. That is a good example.

    The hurdles which you mentioned in your post are certainly some which we experience with most people – the most important one being where the seller is asking the buyer to secure funds into a system before work has commenced.

    But then this goes back to the main question I asked at the start of the thread. Another member had a line in their signature which I really liked. Somewhere on the lines of – asking the hard questions will save you $.

    But I’ve seen in other articles and also experienced how the question of money is always an uncomfortable topic even after the work has finished. But without going too much into that (staying with the positive approach), we have learnt from experiences over the years and provide resources and training to our sellers on the system so that they can best explain how the system works and how it is beneficial to both of them and their client.

    I like how you mentioned that this may introduce another hurdle in getting a sale across the line. One way we solved that problem is by introducing the discount feature where the seller can offer his/her service at a lower price by factoring in that they won’t need to chase it afterwards thus saving time and money. So they can incentivise the sale by offering a lower price.

    The answers to most of your questions, you’ll find on our frequently asked questions page – https://www.checkvault.com.au/frequently-asked-questions/.

    I am still learning so I am open to criticism and disciplining in terms of writing. So if you ever feel that I may be stepping over a line please don’t hesitate to make me aware of it.

    Thanks.

    Hi Prath..

    Mate, awesome reply.. not meaning the merit of the business model, just your personal reply about everything you mentioned.. Awesome to see, not that anything was a ‘criticism’ as such but thought provocative i hope..

    Let me reiterate, no issue my side of the fence mate and i do do truly look forward to seeing your new article/reply.. Having been involved in sales for a while, many fields, there is a very fine line on how you approach certain things or objections or types of people and in the forum space its hard to deliver individually so it may be more important to be ‘positive’ as you say as opposed to starting on a negative..

    Not sure what your history is having mentioned software, see if your company runs a small sales program or if you have time to pick up a sales book (cant recall any off my head but can check when home if you wish) that may show you a different way to deliver a message a different way.. Mind you, your message is clear, just erring on the wrong side of scare mongering for myself.. but i am an odd ball :D

    Speak soon mate, be well.

    Jason

    Jason Ramage | Lucas Arthur Pty Ltd | E: [email protected]   P: 61 3 8324 0344    M: 61 412 244 888
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